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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 16:57

majora you really believe Danielle Muscato is a woman. And actual woman?

If its true. Trans women are real women because they feel like one. Why do trans people commit crime at the same rate as their birth sex. Not chosen gender.

The studies on this have been small (i assume because no one really wants to admit it) but if feeling like a woman makes you one, why do trans women commit ctime at similar rate to biological men. Not biological women?

I would imagine a trans group would have paid for more studies if it had come out the other way.

Pregnancy does not make someone female. Its fact. Chromosomes do.

I can not believe people try to deny science fact to justify this argument.

Majora · 23/07/2017 16:58

You all missed the point where I said I was a rape survivor, which is amusing. Apparently my voice there really doesn't matter because even though I was raped by both men and women, I'm just a misogynist who's never experienced misogyny or anything disgusting and abhorrent in my life! :)

So, question: How do you guys all know what people have in their pants? Do trans women in your spaces only matter when they don't "pass" as a "real woman"? I guarantee you've passed a lot of trans women and men without realising, because they look identical to cis women.

MineKraftCheese · 23/07/2017 16:58

Gender is a social construct. It doesn't REALLY exist. So identifying as a gender is meaningless.

Sex is a biological fact. It cannot be changed. And it cannot be indentified into.

RunningWild12 · 23/07/2017 16:59

If gender id is about however someone feels and chooses to express themselves regarding clothes, hair, makeup - surely there are as many identities as there are people? Didn't we used to call this having a personality?
Don't see how gender id law will in any way help in offering good quality evidence based health care to those with sex/gender dysphoria either.
Big fan of evidence based policy and haven't seen evidence of innate gender identity. Loads for biological sex. What will we teach in biology classes?

MineKraftCheese · 23/07/2017 17:00

@Majora "because they look identical to cis women."

What does a cis woman look like, then?

TinyRick · 23/07/2017 17:01

However, I do feel that sexual preferences aren't inherently evil. If you're only into vaginas, you're only into vaginas. It's when you start dismissing those people as women that I have an issue, that's all, but nobody should be forced to view anybody as a sexual or romantic partner based on anything.

You are transphobic and a TERF

claritytobeclear · 23/07/2017 17:02

But you can't really use your clitoris to rape someone can you?

So are you saying men are biologically predisposed to rape, Stateless? Hence the need for safe spaces segregated by sex.

Or is the connection between men and rape based upon their gender perception?

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 17:02

We dont know and thats the fucking issue. Neither does your trans friend.

You didnt answer my question.

Why does a trans womans rights to not use a private space near people with penis', trump my right to not use a private space near people with penis?

Fwiw i am not a cis woman. I am just a woman. I dont need or like having to add bits to my name to denote i do not have a penis.

Like you only like they/their (aparat from ehen talking about a transwoman, oddly) i dont like the term cis. I dont need anything addes to denote what i am. The work is my sex, was invented as the name for my sex.

Please dont use it.

ACubed · 23/07/2017 17:03

Hi All - I read these threads a lot and don't usually bother replying, but I've learned a lot.
While I obviously do support the feminist view on this, my main issue is the scientific one.
Transexuality has been around for thousands of years (and please correct me if I'm using incorrect terms here, I'm no expert), but as far as I can remember it used to be a case of a man (for example) saying something along the lines of 'I feel I relate more to women and would like to live as a woman'. It's this shift in narrative to 'I AM a woman' which I find very worrying. To imply that brain and body are separate, and it can be possible for your mind to not match your body has huge implications, ones I cannot believe in. I believe the mind is a product of the body, and the two cannot be separated.
There are heaps on contradictions, I've just read this which was an interesting read, by one of the Wikipedia founders: medium.com/@lsanger/some-puzzles-about-transgender-thinking-e4d17adec26
Anyway I guess I don't have much to add, but felt I should chip in.
On another note, my friend is a psychiatrist, and wrote an incredibly balanced, natural paper on changing attitudes to transgender people, and received lots of hate mail about it (it didn't even say anything that challenged the TG viewpoint), and is now afraid to say anything publicly on the matter! Terrible times.

Majora · 23/07/2017 17:05

Why does a trans womans rights to not use a private space near people with penis', trump my right to not use a private space near people with penis?

It doesn't.

But your right doesn't trump theirs, either.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 17:06

But it does.

If they eant to call themselves a woman. They can use the female toilets. Even if i am not comfortable with it. So it does trump mine.

Why?

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/07/2017 17:06

So have a third category for trans people, keep women's and men's spaces and add a trans space. Problem solved, surely?

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 17:07

assassinated i eould be happy with that. But TRAs are not.

Brazenhussy0 · 23/07/2017 17:07

we should be breaking down the idea that uterus = women

It's not an idea. It's scientific fact.

At this point, I don't give a fuck about who's in what prison or what toilets people are using. The blatant disregard for science here is terrifying and potentially extremely dangerous.

Biological men and biological women have different reactions to medications, are affected differently by diseases, have different sex organs and different hormones.
Men need to be screened for prostate cancer, women for cervical cancer.

How does this all work in your view Majora?

cuirderussie · 23/07/2017 17:07

Majora you are a woman. Doesn't matter how you identify. If you get pregnant your career can be wrecked, if you come across an attacker chances are he's bigger and stronger than you. You should be standing up for your fellow women. The whole non binary thing is just narcissistic bullshit.

Majora · 23/07/2017 17:09

I'm happy to discuss this over PMs, by the way. Yes, I'm a coward who's stepping away for a bit to get a drink, but I'm clearly in the minority here and it's hard to respond to 5 people demanding answers from me at once. Ask me all the pointed questions you want if you legitimately want to hear a viewpoint that's not just an echo chamber, because I'm open to doing the same. I've been in my own echo chambers for too long.

However, nobody can or will change my view that trans women are women, trans men are men, non-binary is real and it would be very validating and helpful, especially in work and school situations, to be legally recognised as non-binary.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 17:10

Majora
Please, tell me why should the women here have any respect for you, when you show them no respect for their privacy or safety?

Biology matters. Tell your non binary rubbish to the victims of FGM or Boko Haram; to the women in India who are attacked daily when they enter 'gender neutral' facilities; to females babies aborted all over the world because they are not male.

OP posts:
TinyRick · 23/07/2017 17:10

But they want OUR rights. Our hard fought rights.

They want them because it validates their 'identity'.

They need to get their own rights. And I would be all for that.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 17:11

It doesn't.

Not yet, but you advocate that it should. You want the Danielle Muscatos of this world in women's spaces, with their penises.

That is what self-identification means.

You could petition for separate spaces for transwomen, but you are here, opposing feminists who don't want any penises in their spaces.

You want to subject women to prison rape from which they can get pregnant. Prison rape can never be fully prevented, apparently, as it very frequently happens in men's prisons, and yet you want to enable males to do it to women in women's prisons, too.

This is what you want and condone if you agree with self identification. Make your peace with being an enabler of rape that can and will result in pregnancy, where such rape is entirely preventable.

Make your peace with it, or change your stance.

You can tell us that you are a rape survivor as long as you want, that does not give you a right to lobby for women and girls to be made more vulnerable to rape than we already are.

Majora · 23/07/2017 17:12

*Biological men and biological women have different reactions to medications, are affected differently by diseases, have different sex organs and different hormones.
Men need to be screened for prostate cancer, women for cervical cancer.

How does this all work in your view Majora?*

What goes on between a doctor and a patient is going to be things like that. Trans women and trans men have access to the healthcare related to whether they have a prostate/cervix/ovaries/breasts or not (in the case of breasts that can get breast cancer rather than augmented breasts from plastic surgery. as you all know I'm sure, cis men can get breast cancer, too.).

Anyway, I figured I should answer that one.

ACubed · 23/07/2017 17:12

Hey I'm reposting this link as it'll be lost in the debate going on, last time I promise!
medium.com/@lsanger/some-puzzles-about-transgender-thinking-e4d17adec26

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 17:12

But they want OUR rights. Our hard fought rights.

This, exactly.

And they won't get them without a fight.

They can get their own rights. But they won't take away ours without a fight.

Smellbellina · 23/07/2017 17:12

and is now afraid to say anything publicly on the matter
This is a big part of the problem. Dr Ken Zucker anyone?

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 17:13

Ah rightm you dont want to answer so ita jusy to many people.

Perhaps thinking about that. Many biological women are not happy or comfortable.

GahBuggerit · 23/07/2017 17:15

See id still be able to tell a man who wants to pass as a woman I think, but I'd probably feel less threatened if they are at least making a decent attempt to pass. But the fact that an actual man, with a penis (as only men have these - biology 101) and face fur a la that Muscato prick, can stroll into a woman's refuge and take up a fucking actual woman's rightful place is a disgrace and should worry every actual woman and mother of girls everywhere.

And cis is highly offensive, please don't use it.

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