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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 16:40

Majora if all the violence is coming from men, why do TRAs target women so aggressively with online harassment, attempts to get them fired, rape and death threats?

Exactly. Why are their worst enemy women, feminists? Why did they brand a new slur specifically to use for women?

Why did they not coin a slur for men who beat transwomen up, molest them, murder them?

There is not even a word for males who attack transwomen. They will be called "terfs" despite certainly not being feminists - if any TRA says anything to or about them at all.

Transwomen allegedly fear men and therefore want to use the women's toilets, go to women's prisons, etc.

Why? Those places are full of women, feminists, their worst enemies in the world for whom TRAs have specifically branded a slur.

You'd think they'd be more afraid of the horrible, horrible terfs than of, you know, males for whom TRAs have not invented a slur.

GahBuggerit · 23/07/2017 16:40

And tomorrow I suspect I'll feel a bit bi and may fill it out again from another pc as the whole different persona I'll be.

I could actually get on board with this you know. Might go to my local barbers for my next haircut dressed in my heels and LBD but tell them I'm just def a man so they can't refuse. Way hey cheap haircut! What else can I do?

user1492877024 · 23/07/2017 16:42

Fantastic news. I believe it is called progress. I support this move fully.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 16:42

Way hey cheap haircut! What else can I do?

Not much, because voting and having your own bank account you can already to as woman, thanks to feminism.

This shit would never have gained any support before feminism removed most official male privileges.

Paying women less can be done without admitting it, so males can identify as women and still earn male wages.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/07/2017 16:43

I'm a women, that's a biological fact. I don't identify with the gender stereotypes associated with my sex. I reject gender as a concept the that in any way defines me (or any one else!). Does that make me agender, or non-binary in this brave new world?

I suppose you are a fan of the ladybrain idea Majora, or perhaps of souls, as I can't see any other way how you can insist that a trans woman is a woman? The only reason I am a woman is because it is biologically the case. How is a trans woman a woman?

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 16:43

Somebody should ask Shania Twain, she knows

Clearly this is all her fault then for perpetuating the myth that woman is a feeling.

Damn Shania Twain Grin

Majora · 23/07/2017 16:44

You dont think this happens to women? Out in real life everyday? Why does her right to not want to use a private space with people who have a penis, trumo my right to not eant to use private space next to someone with a penis.

Of course it happens to women. It happened to her.

It's also happened to me. I am a rape survivor, by both cis men and cis women, but I guess my voice here doesn't matter because I fully support this movement and don't agree with trans women being excluded from feminism because they are women.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 23/07/2017 16:47

Part of me thinks great, bring it on. Because when normal people realise what the real world consequences of this madness are, the backlash will be visible from outer space.

Sadly, I suspect not until the "self ID" policy has caused the transmission of serious illnesses to blood recipients.

^ These two separate comments upthread. How many casualties do we have to accept in the name of these proposed changes? How many rapes, sexual assault and voyeurism convictions will it take before we wake up to the fact that women's spaces are sex segregated for a reason? What's an acceptable level of violence against women, girls and young male children changing in women's spaces for their own safety to further this cause? (And let's not forget that women quietly opting out of activities that they previously enjoyed participating in will not be readily measurable.)

It also beggars belief we are potentially risking the safety of blood products with this mess when the contaminated blood & plasma inquiry has just been launched. Thousands of people have been harmed & killed. We know a haemophiliac who contracted Hep C from infected blood products in his teens & died of (related) liver cancer in his early 40s, leaving his grieving wife & (adopted) son behind - their own biological child being an impossibility because of his Hep C.

We have to find a way of protecting trans people from discrimation and violence which doesn't put others at risk of harm. This proposed legislation is not the answer.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 16:47

You are aware that your transwoman friend will not be safe in women's toilets if any random male gets to identify his way in there, right?

You are aware that, just so that you feel a bit warm and fuzzy about yourself, you take away women's privacy with your stance, are you?

You are happy to throw girls and women under the bus, I really wonder why, as a rape survivor you don't know better.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 16:48

I dont want to share a private space with someone who has a penis.

I dont want to have to speak to a counsellor who has a penis (rape survior).

Why dont my rights matter?

sleighbellend · 23/07/2017 16:48

They're not women though! No-one truly believes that. Half the reason trans activists are so aggressive is because they know they have no logic or truth on their side so they just have to frighten any opponents into submission.

TinyRick · 23/07/2017 16:48

@ Majora

Here's a link that has documented a lot of MtT and genderists, such as yourself, thoughts on women and those who don't think Transwomen are women.

terfisaslur.com/

But I guess you're just going to not click on it and just put your head in the sand.

GahBuggerit · 23/07/2017 16:49

Oh bugger Vestal you're right. Oh well. Guess I'll have to go back to plan a and just refuse to use/enter a biological women's space if a penis owner enters

Majora · 23/07/2017 16:50

I suppose you are a fan of the ladybrain idea Majora, or perhaps of souls, as I can't see any other way how you can insist that a trans woman is a woman? The only reason I am a woman is because it is biologically the case. How is a trans woman a woman?

I have no idea what a ladybrain is. I don't think I want to know. Maybe I think souls are real, but I'm not a spiritual person, I just enjoy the concept of soulmates.

I mean, what are we classing as biologically a woman? Pregnancy? Some women can't get pregnant, so that's out. Sex parts? I mean, some women don't have them. I feel like a lot of us know about development in the uterus and we all develop from the same goop. A penis is essentially the same tissue as a clitoris, after all.

There are hormonal and physical differences, that much is true, but the attitude surrounding gender and that males have a dominance over females is a common feminism issue because for a large part, it's societal. It bothers me that women who exclude trans women are so eager to focus hard on women's bodies when part of feminism is ripping down the idea that our bodies matter, that every body is beautiful (or every healthy body is beautiful, depending on who you ask) yet this doesn't apply when it comes to women with a penis.

You're so unwilling to consider the discrimination that trans women face because yes, cis women face it too, but trans people aren't sexual predators. If a man wants to go into a woman's bathroom to harass women, what the hell is stopping him right now? What's stopping men and women alike from luring children away? Transgender people having more rights won't lead to a higher rate of sexual predators.

GardenGeek · 23/07/2017 16:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 16:52

Why dont my rights matter?

Because you are actually female.

Majora wants his transwoman friend in the women's bathrooms because the bepenised in the men's bathroom are sooo dangerous.

Never mind what the actually female women want. Never mind that any violent male can just self identify his way into the women's bathroom and assault the women there when Majora gets what he wants.

(Can't remember whether Majora gave a gender, but he presents as misogynist, so I guess male gender identity)

gingerscot · 23/07/2017 16:53

You didn't answer this part Majora, rally interested to hear the answer from your point of view:

"Why does her right to not want to use a private space with people who have a penis, trumo my right to not eant to use private space next to someone with a penis."

claritytobeclear · 23/07/2017 16:53

Assassinated rejecting gender as a concept is problematic, though, when taking about safe spaces being segregated by sex. Sexual segregation for the purpose of creating a 'safe space', surely, perpetuates sexual stereotypes. It promotes the concept that men are, somehow, biologically pre-disposed to abuse which could be used, by some, to diminish their responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, I can see there is a strong need for sexually segregated safe spaces, in the context of a disproportionate amount of abuse on women being carried out by men. However, in this context, gender stereotypes are strengthened.

Majora · 23/07/2017 16:55

But I guess you're just going to not click on it and just put your head in the sand.

I clicked on it. I still agree that we should be breaking down the idea that uterus = women. I'm certainly not a woman, nor am I a man. I was raised as a woman and hated every second of it.

However, I do feel that sexual preferences aren't inherently evil. If you're only into vaginas, you're only into vaginas. It's when you start dismissing those people as women that I have an issue, that's all, but nobody should be forced to view anybody as a sexual or romantic partner based on anything.

Don't agree with the 'kill all TERFs' thing, but when all you ever get told is that you're a sexual predator, you don't exist, you're disgusting, you're not a real woman, I see where the anger comes from.

I don't see how saying 'trans women exist' is centering them in feminism. It's just asking/demanding them to be included, because they exist.

Cis men doing perfomative allyship can go do one tbh.

MineKraftCheese · 23/07/2017 16:55

I don't identify as any gender. I was born a woman. I don't identify as a woman. I just am one.

I don't identify as human.

I am one.

I don't identify as British.

I am British.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 16:55

We should say women are threatened by penis-bearers so need women's spaces. They don't have any valid argument which we cant use ourselves. We just need to use it for ourselves rather than fight against them.

But "transwomen are women". And if you say that people with vaginas need spaces safe from the bepenised, they will next identify as having a vagina even though they don't.

Perhaps if we always stay one step before them in moving the goalpoasts, we can keep some tiny shred of safety and dignity, but we'd need to keep moving all the time.

Because there once was a perfect word for people with vulvas and uteruses and ovaries: Women. Once upon a time, we were called women.

Until the TRAs stole that word and took away all meaning from it.

Whatever new word you invent they will steal and invade.

Majora · 23/07/2017 16:56

(Can't remember whether Majora gave a gender, but he presents as misogynist, so I guess male gender identity)

I'm the least misogynistic person here. I have a vagina, if you really must know, and my pronouns are 'they/them'. I won't respond to anybody who uses otherwise if you really want to discuss this with me, you'll respect that.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/07/2017 16:56

I'm in no way denying trans women and trans men face discrimination and violence. That should never happen, and I will happily fight to protect trans people. I don't think that has to mean that women's rights are removed or affected and I don't believe that self identification is the right approach at all.

"Biologically a woman" just means of the sex that can create eggs and bear young. A woman with issues around fertility, or who has had a hysterectomy is still of the sex that can create eggs and bear young. A man is not and never can be. Just like a woman can never create sperm.

TinyRick · 23/07/2017 16:56

@Majora

How are Transwomen not men?

Would love to know why.

StatelessPrincess · 23/07/2017 16:56

A penis is essentially the same tissue as a clitoris, after all

But you can't really use your clitoris to rape someone can you?