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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
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5
SerfTerf · 23/07/2017 15:14

I'm PMing people the link to the other thread but we really need to move off MN if anyone has an idea about the best way of doing that.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 15:14

I also wonder how it will work with things like intimate searches for prisoners? Who will do the strip search for self ID woman who is physically male? Would it be illegal to refuse? And conversely would a female prisoner be forced to accept a strip search from a male IDing as a woman?

Oh, I am sure female prisoners will be forced to accept strip searches from males.

It is what this is all about, giving males access to women. There is nothing else it could possibly be about.

Not sure whether women will be forced to do strip searches on males; no woman has to get a job where she'll have to do strip searches, so when they see a steep decline in women in those jobs, they might relent.

But with prisoners, they can do what they want. And they will. Female prisoners have no lobby, who would protect them?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/07/2017 15:16

You know what's REALLY needed? A small, official, quotable, joirno-friendly lobby group with a roster of spokeswomen and some agreed policy positions

Journos have mostly been silenced by the patriarchy the TRAs and MRAs - see 'Jenni Murray'.

TinyRick · 23/07/2017 15:17

Fair enough Assigned

I'm just angry and disappointed at the blatant misogyny and homophobia that runs rampant throughout the trans ideology.

Should I have said NAMALT? ;)

PencilsInSpace · 23/07/2017 15:18

Thanks Serf, I'll be over in a bit, need to tame the laundry monster first!

Diamondlife, have you any clue about the impact the transagenda is having on lesbians' rights, wellbeing and safety? I think it is you who lacks any real understanding of this issue and I agree with Assigned, it would be good if you did some reading.

SerfTerf · 23/07/2017 15:18

Some outlets love it though Spartacus. Plus It would be easier to make noise with a party line and press releases.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 15:18

serf pls can you meesgae me the link
Thanks

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/07/2017 15:21

Some outlets yes ... but I'd be worried about aligning the cause with some both because they are anti-women and because they are anti LGB as well anti T in a different way to that which I am.

SerfTerf · 23/07/2017 15:21

Yes saiman you and smile'should have yours now.

SerfTerf · 23/07/2017 15:23

Well at the moment we're largely voiceless. I can't help thinkingniys worth considering.

Is anyone in PR?

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 15:25

Thanks serf

GodIsDead · 23/07/2017 15:27

Shit like this makes me weep for what our society is becoming. We are well and truly fucked up now.

Smellbellina · 23/07/2017 15:30

Could you please email me the link @SerfTerf

Hotheadwheresthecoldbath · 23/07/2017 15:30

Just waiting for the Government to tie itself in knots as it does away with gender and then tries to reduce the gender pay gap and penalise hospitals who have same gender ward.There also going to be so many unintentional repercussions that they ignoring atm.
Amazed though,as talking to people at work who would mostly support transpeople and mean those we already have around us just living their lives(that most of do not have an issue with),but oblivious to the bigger picture.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/07/2017 15:33

I'm very unhappy about transwomen in women's safe spaces, but the tipping point for me has been the huge increase in children and teenagers being diagnosed or self-IDing as trans. Many of these children/teens are gay as well as gender nonconforming, but come from families/communities where this is unacceptable, often for religious reasons. A medical diagnosis that the child has 'been born in the wrong body' is somehow easier to accept (even though it's scientific claptrap). I believe that's the position of the NZ weightlifting champ shown above, but in that case the transition happened when he was in his 30s and was bankrolled by his wealthy evangelical Christian parents.

Primary aged boys and girls are being put on puberty blockers so they won't have to go through puberty as their biological sex, as this would be distressing for them. But there are side effects to these powerful drugs. Few children who start on blockers don't proceed to hormone therapy. More side effects, one of them being PERMANENT STERILITY. I've put that in capitals because it outrages me. We are sleepwalking to a position where gay children (because most of them would be gay left to themselves) are being sterilised and in some cases are being mutilated by the gender reassignment surgery.

Life is tough for teenage girls. Social media and porn have created big pressures to look and behave a certain way. Bullying for those who don't fit in is rife. Sexual assault is common. Young women's mental health is very poor. It seems obvious to me that the huge increase in FtT is a response to that. If you bind your breasts and dress like a boy, you might escape some of that unwanted male attention. If you take hormones, you get to opt out of periods!

For an unhappy 15yo it probably seems like a really simple way out. Unfortunately it isn't. When she decides at 20 that actually she is a woman after all and maybe that's manageable, she's left with permanent facial hair and a deep voice from the testosterone, she's probably unable to have children, she may have back and other problems from the breast binding and if she's really unlucky she'll have had a double mastectomy and perhaps even a hysterectomy.

If a young teenager suffered from the delusion that she was fat when she was actually severely underweight, she'd get psychiatric treatment to try to help her overcome her body dysmorphia. I don't understand why an inability to accept your birth sex is any different. It's dysmorphia and it can be treated with therapy, counselling, kindness, watchful waiting - not with hormones and surgery.

This is where self-IDing leads. It's wrong and it's got to stop.

Slimthistime · 23/07/2017 15:34

If this hadn't been linked to gay rights I dint think we'd be in this mess

Any prominent gay people speaking out against it? I've got two close friends who are gay and when I told about this last year, they said it just couldnt happen. They are also a bit "meh" about the risk of violence.

I've reached a point where I think they might be minimising through fear of being seen as discriminatory. I am a bit flummoxed this is what they think.

Also can I identify as white now? I don't know anything about my parents culture anyway. It is actually more logical. ( agree race is a social construct).

PlectrumElectrum · 23/07/2017 15:36

Placemarking to read this later. I will not just stand by and let my voice go unheard on this.

DJBaggySmalls · 23/07/2017 15:37

Petition on 38 Degrees ''No to the erasure of women and abolition of our spaces''

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-to-the-erasure-of-women-and-abolition-of-our-spaces

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 15:46

Also can I identify as white now? I don't know anything about my parents culture anyway. It is actually more logical. ( agree race is a social construct).

Try it, but be prepared for it to not work. Rachel Dolezal didn't succeed in identifying her way into things meant for black people, and black people are actually an oppressed group.

Trying to identify yourself into the oppressor class will be even harder.

Are you male? That would make things easier. Identify as white woman, and people will feel uneasy about questioning your gender identity, and therefore be reluctant about questioning your race identity, too.

If you're female, you'd have to do what Whoopi Goldberg did in this one film, can't remember the name, where she got a mask and disguised as white man.
If you want to join the oppressor class, you have to pass. No other way.

MinniesAndMickeysNeedCounting · 23/07/2017 15:48

gingerpusscat

One thing I simply cannot understand: why do those born male but who don't identify as male simply seek to broaden the definition of 'male.'? I see the whole thing as completely reactionary. Why is the definition of 'woman' to be expanded to include the bepenised, rather than the narrowness of 'man' expanded and challenged to embrace those with penises who feel they don't fit in?


This

I'm relatively new to this issue but am educating myself on the issues. Thank you

thenightsky · 23/07/2017 15:51

Signed.

PittTheMiddleOneNoOneMentions · 23/07/2017 15:52

SlimThisTime

Also can I identify as white now?

Yup. Didn't you know?

See "Ex-NAACP leader Rachel Dolezal: 'I identify as black': -

edition.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp/index.html

I wonder if we can now self ID as other people. "I identify as Donald Trump so am now the leader of the free world. Get that other Trump out of here".

I am Spartacus.

WellErrr · 23/07/2017 15:52

Wouldn't a government petition be better?

Smellbellina · 23/07/2017 15:54

I can't bring myself to sign the petition on 38 degrees, I don't think it's worded well.

growinganotherhead · 23/07/2017 15:56

BabychamSocialist Sun 23-Jul-17 12:15:27
Yes, I do sympathise but at the end of the day, what is in someone's trousers is of no concern to me. I want people to stop killing themselves because they aren't happy with how they were born.

Someone unhappy with how they were born cannot change that by declaring they are something else. Far better they grow up supported to understand and find their place within the vast range of differences among the male sex they are a part of. There is plenty of room for alpha, beta, gamma males and many more besides. No need to force them selves into something they will never be genetically able to achieve.

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