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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 12:49

Virtue signal all you like; you are not a feminist if you advocate putting women and girls in danger

This.

The downside of feminism having had some success is that now every cowardly handmaiden considers herself a feminist, though she would never have had the guts to fight for women's voting rights, women's rights to hold jobs and earn money that goes to women's own bank accounts.

They want to take credit for all that, but when push comes to shove, they are cowards.

When the suffragettes fought for women's right to vote, those meekly handmaidens would have been among those who said that it is not nice to do actual political activism that men have to notice, and that the suffragettes should nicely ask for men to please, please give them human rights.

I am fed up. If you are not prepard to stand up for women, then don't call yourself a feminist.
Some thirty years ago, only, you would have been too cowardly to call yourself feminist, you would have reassured any man who asked that you are not a feminist and just want to nicely ask for some human rights (but never more than he wants to generously grant you), pretty, pretty please.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:49

Spartacus

FFS, they sometimes eat SAT ON A BENCH IN THE CORRIDOR. It's up to each individual if they want to eat their lunch or not.

IdentifiesAsASquirrel

There have always been toilet monitors, because kids are always going to try and get away with smoking in there, or bullying other kids.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:50

whiskey why dont you read up on it.

FirstShinyRobe · 23/07/2017 12:50

BabychamSocialist (or anyone else who agrees), may I ask the foundation of your feminism in the absence of terms to define the harm done? I'd really love to understand in order to find some common ground.

jellyfrizz · 23/07/2017 12:50

Babycham as a feminist of 20 years what would you say is the cause of women's oppression?

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 12:50

SmileEachDay - I agree. Sorry I engaged in it. I don't think anyone really has an issue with gender neutral separate, lockable rooms with their own mirrors and (ideally) washing facilities. Or if they do, it's the absolute least of our concerns.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/07/2017 12:51

If you go to a venue like the NEC, Birmingham, the toilets are cubicles opening on to the main foyer. It's not bullshit. I imagine it is the design used in new schools too

Who cleans them after men have pissed on the seat? Also, if it was anything like our school toilets, up the wall?

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 12:51

Sparticus ok but that's not what has been proposed has it?

Males are in:

Women's bathrooms, women's shelters, women's showers, women's prisons in the US. This is what is being proposed, and you are fucking naive and haven't informed yourself if you seriously believe that this is not EXACTLY what is being proposed for the UK, and what will HAPPEN in the UK, if you don't oppose it.

SerfTerf · 23/07/2017 12:52

So what's the plan?

I can't find a petition. Is it worth staying one and posting a link on MN?

BahHumbygge · 23/07/2017 12:52

Self enclosed cubicles (with floor to ceiling walls and doors, no gaps) leading directly off a public foyer are the best solution for all concerned. However, the designers and authorities won't action or fund this most likely. They'll just end up redesignating the women's loos as "gender neutral"... so basically anyone could enter. Women lose their space, men hold onto their space. Oh look, that's the entire history of patriarchy and women's subjugation right there in another manifestation!

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:53

FFS, they sometimes eat SAT ON A BENCH IN THE CORRIDOR. It's up to each individual if they want to eat their lunch or not.

Nope. Is not. If that is their lunchbreak. Its not a break and not a place to eat.

You also said they sit and eat their lunch while supervising. Not 'if they want to eat'.

There has to be 2 doors between the toilet and where you eat even when designing a house.

If this happens at your school. It isnt great. Where is the supervision between lessons?
Where is the teachers break?
Food should not be eaten there.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:53

Where the teacher sits isn't directly off the toilets. As I said, it's in a corridor. There is a small ventilated lobby in between the toilets and the corridor, which means it complies with all the necessary regulations.

Still, why are we discussing this when it has nothing to do with the matter at hand?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/07/2017 12:53

Self enclosed cubicles (with floor to ceiling walls and doors, no gaps) leading directly off a public foyer are the best solution for all concerned

With cleaners for the entire time they are open.

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:54

A parallel would be that if the NHS was offering everyone a private hospital room and bathroom, and there were not wards, there would not be an issue.

But that is not going to happen, so the issue remains.

zinniazuri · 23/07/2017 12:54

Whisky

The article on the BBC mentioned not having to live as your chosen gender for two years, and not having to have gender dysphoria, championing self-identification. Oh, and lowering the age this can be done from 18 to 16. It's basically demedicalising transition, which does leave a huge loophole - that predatory males who aren't trans could enter female private-spaces and be accepted on the basis that he 'self-identifies as a woman'.

Whisky2014 · 23/07/2017 12:54

Yes, because it won't happen. There will be different section not our section taken away. America do things totally different from us..gun law anyone? So just because you think you know what will happen doesn't mean it actually will.

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 12:54

What would happen if we mobilised thousands of women to commit to making a statutory declaration that we are men in order to gain access to male only clubs, places of worship etc? That seems like the sort of thing the suffragettes might have done!

ineededausername · 23/07/2017 12:55

imo a lot of the proposed changes would be a step in the right direction i.e. letting people be legally recognised as their gender, allowing transition at an earlier (but still limited as they've mentioned) age, etc.

As people have spoken about above, there is the biological aspect of physical sex and brain make up. However, transwomen are not men pretending to be women, they neurologically are women. If you research the subject there are a number of credible sources that explain this more articulately than I can, which is why I will attach a harvard link below.

sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Although there are the issues of women only spaces etc. that people have mentioned earlier, non-trans women are capable of doing everything (good and bad) that transwomen & men pretending to be transwomen are. I'm not about to tell anyone that they shouldn't have an opinion but I would recommend reading up on the science and studies that have been done on the topic.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:55

The rota for the toilets is decided way in advance and is based on who has a free period that day. If you have a free period, that becomes your break. Some teachers take a packed lunch and eat it whilst supervising, many don't.

It's like this in many schools I've been to.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 12:56

Please, IGNORE THE GENDERDEFENDERS. They are a waste of our time

We need to start taking some action

OP posts:
zinniazuri · 23/07/2017 12:56

Spartacus

I think the two-door thing is irrelevant. Plenty of people live in bedsits, hostels, and studios, with only one door separating toilet from kitchen.

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:57

I have no issue with a teacher sitting on a bench near to a room with a lobby (by law it must have a door) leading to another room which has a series of doors leading off it into other rooms.

It has nothing to do with this thread though.

Whisky2014 · 23/07/2017 12:57

If someone wants to prey on a woman they will do it regardless of access to a fucking toilet.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:58

Actually, I just looked it up and as long as the room is ventilated (the lobby is) it doesn't need a 2nd door separating it.

Bit hypocritical of you to say that it's nothing to do with the thread when you were the one spending 2 pages splitting hairs over it.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:59

Whisky2014

Exactly my belief. Also, male and female disabled people nearly always have to share the same facilities, but nobody seems to be thinking about their safety or how they feel?