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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To tell my brother he needs to get a job despite depression

150 replies

mangovanila · 19/07/2017 10:52

My brother and his wife are both 40, she has a son who's 22 but they don't have any children together. My brother hasn't worked in two years as he says his depression is too bad, SIL works every hour under the sun as a HCA even though her own health is deteriorating.

They lived in wales and decided they wanted to move back here to be closer to family so they gave up their council house to private rent. Every place they're in they decide they don't like and after six months they leave and go somewhere else. They've just moved in to a new flat which they seem to like and hopefully won't be moving anymore!

Her dad brought them a car around a year ago then asked for the money back! They didn't have it so they took out a loan for £4000 to repay her dad for the car. They managed to convince my mum and dad 66 and 69 to act as guarantors for this loan. They're retired but have worked hard all their life and own their home but have very little money. I think they sort of felt pressured to help their son out.

So they took the 4K out and a few months later they decided they where moving again so needed money for deposit etc and they decided they wanted to pay off all their debts in one hit. They increased the loan to a total of £1000 with repayments of around £400 a month. They moved but I don't see where this money went, they didn't even get a removal man, my 69 year old dad put all the stuff in the back of his 4x4 and moved it for them.

Recently brother and SIL have been going through financial difficulties. They brought two puppies, one who needed urgent medical attention which cleaned them out. He was telling me how he didn't know how he would even make the rent this month. He told me how they haven't been able to pay the loan repayments in 5 months so my mum has had to pay them as she's guarantor. They also left their old flat with one months rent owing which my mum had to pay as she stood guarantor and didn't want her credit rating affected. He was previously getting esa but has been taken away now due to SIL increased earnings.

So the other day my mum and dad went away in their caravan and they came back with no caravan. I asked what had happened and dad said they'd sold it to a man down there as they needed the money. They got around £2000 for it. They've just asked me if I could help them with the big food shop this month as they're broke.

Brother says he intends to start repayments as soon as they get back on track and says that hopefully they're getting some money soon from a personal injury claim SIL made from a car accident she had. I've asked him why he doesn't look for a job and he says he can't handle it.

AIBU if I tell him to man up and get a job because he has financial commitments? I wouldn't care if it wasn't for my mum and dad suffering because they've taken out loans they can't afford and my poor dad having to sell his caravan which he loves. I know some will think my parents are naive and stupid but I really think they just wanted to help him, even though they are out of pocket dramatically they will be content suffering if it means he has what he wants. They would do it for any of their kids but it doesn't make it right.

OP posts:
Eliza9917 · 20/07/2017 14:39

I agree with you OP, he sounds like a lazy entitled shit, hiding under an umbrella of a diagnosis because he's been allowed to sit on his arse and have everyone else bail him out.

Whether he is or not is another matter.

But if he can get on a plane, leave his comfort zone and sit on a beach for two weeks, I'm sure he could get some kind of job, and that would probably be good for him.

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 · 20/07/2017 14:42

But if he can get on a plane, leave his comfort zone and sit on a beach for two weeks, I'm sure he could get some kind of job, and that would probably be good for him.

I had several holidays abroad whilst I was ill for many years. I still wasn't able to work during that time.

WannaBe · 20/07/2017 14:42

Regardless of whether this bloke is or isn't capable of work he is a freeloading scrounger, and people are enabling this.

Ultimately it matters not whether he has depression or has had to have a limb amputated meaning that he currently can't (or won't) work, what matters is the fact that he is living beyond his means, (new car? Fancy holiday? A couple of puppies?" And this is a lifestyle he can't afford, therefore he shouldn't be relying on family to give him the money to be able to do these things. If he can't afford a holiday then he shouldn't be going into debt for one. It ain't rocket science. And if he's in debt up to his eyeballs then he needs to find a way to repay that debt, and if that means getting a job then that's what he needs to do. But he needs to stop borrowing money and his parents need to stop lending it to him.

CockacidalManiac · 20/07/2017 14:51

It seems to me that there's two issues at stake here. Firstly, he's doing himself no favours. He needs to take ownership of his condition, and do what's recommended by the professionals involved in his care. When my depression is bad, I can't get out of bed never mind go on foreign holidays and worry about puppies; it's sounds like he's got 'White Dee' depression. He won't entertain the idea of trying to work, but can manage to go away an awful lot. Despite my long standing mental health issues, I manage to work part time. I know that some people's conditions make them completely unable to work, but in that case they have to accept that they'll have to do without a lot of luxuries, and live more frugally. It's difficult to live on benefits. I find that working part time helps my own long standing MH conditions, but everyone is different.
Secondly, though, what's all this crap about 'if we lived in Africa'?! It's all very well saying 'I'd do whatever was needed to look after my kids', but you have to accept it's not possible in some cases. Try working after a severe stroke! It's the same with some mental health conditions. Try holding down a job with Schizophrenia.
In conclusion; from the information presented here, it sounds like he could be doing far more to help himself. However, there's been some pretty shitty 'pull yourself together' type commentary by the OP and others that pisses me off too.

doobree · 20/07/2017 16:22

What a sad thread this is, with some very ignorant view points.

As said, depression (and mental illness) affects people very differently and ranges in severity so no one here can say exactly how the OP's brother is affected without knowing him and sitting down to talk to him over a period of time. The term depression can be a misued as a broad term for a range of mental health issues. Who knows what thoughts or feelings are going through the brother's head.

It can make people selfish, deeply sad, scared, overwhelmed, mean, desperate, joyless, self loathing, suicidal, irrational, destructive, unpredictable, hopeless, helpless, angry, implusive, anxious, paranoid, insecure, exhausted, insomniacs, and any other other 'undesirable' and 'unnapealing' and 'unhelpful' trait that you can think of.

The depression (and thoughts/ feelings) may completely mask any other good traits they have (or did have) like being kind and loving, funny, skilled, helpful, generous, active, confident etc etc. None of us excep the OP can say what the brother was like before he was ill.

Some people with depression would rather live and die under a bridge or in the their bed than live with life, themsleves, claim benefits or be with other people, so ill are they.

That is the trouble with mental illness - it makes you mentally ill. And the more ill you are, the less you can see reason and what others would consider good sense. If you can work and take proper care of yourself and others despite some difficuties with your mental health, then you are (thankfully) actually just less unwell than some other mentally unwell people.

So whilst taking on constructive activites (and this might not be paid work right now) will help his recovery, the fact that he has depression may mean that he is simply unable to recognise that this is a good idea and be unable to make himself do it.

I'm suspect his home instability and financial problems are both a source of and a symptom of his illness. Situations like this can be a vicious circle. He may be cycling from deep depression to desperation and an urge to (ill-conceived) action back to deep dperession again. This happens with depression not just Bi-polar. Even depressed people can get urges of motivation (or claustrohobia/panic/ desperation or just genuine healthy motivation), but can't always sustain it long enough to make the decision work out. There is no argument that this is really awful to deal with. Perhaps it is the wife that is deperate to find something that will cheer him up?

It won't have helped that they were loaned/given money for a car but then had to pay it back. Ths could have thrown them both and it can be very hard to make the best decison when under pressure.

Perhaps they thought that getting puppies would be constructive becasue it would give him something to care for (this can encourage taking care of oneself) and help him exercise. Not all bad, but sadly not through through financially.

There is so much here that is an unknown.

No one on here should be passing judgement on whether or not he is genuinely ill or is faking based on a few snippets from the OP. He may not even feel able to tell her the whole truth of how he feels. No doubt there are some really messed up and desperately awful situations going on with the OP's family but slagging off people with diagnosed mental illness is not the answer.

If he is unable to work then he needs to (or be helped to) reapply/ appeal his ESA decisions and maybe apply for PIP if he is having trouble caring for himself. There are organisations such as Mind and Rethink that may be able to help. Also the CAB. It isn't easy or pleasant to go through the process, but would help them financially. Being found fit to work previously does not mean anything.

AwaywiththePixies27 · 20/07/2017 16:56

What a sad thread this is, with some very ignorant view points.

Agreed.

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 · 20/07/2017 17:19

doobree I applaud you. That is an amazingly well written post and says everything I would have liked to say a lot more coherently.

BoysofMelody · 20/07/2017 17:28

Wow, amazing how the OP - who also has MH issues with bipolar is being called pig ignorant.

I have clinical depression. I know fuck all about bi-polar ... because it is a different condition. One I have never experienced.

It also goes without saying that it effects different people differently and differs in severity. I would have no clue about whether a person I knew suffering from it was capable of working or not.

So if from that position of ignorance started pontificating about what I would or wouldn't do if I were bi-polar, I'd be pig ignorant.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 20/07/2017 18:01

Boys
Bipolar includes episodes of clinical depression - its one of the defining features along with episodes of mania or hypomania (hence the old name for the condition Manic Depression). So someone who suffers from Bipolar is will have direct experience of clinical depression.

WannaBe · 20/07/2017 18:06

But people are making their viewpoints on this thread based purely on the depression. If the OP had simply posted that her brother didn't have the financial means but had borrowed money to the tune of £££ so he could buy a new car/go on a foreign holiday/acquire a couple of puppies people would be saying he was totally out of line and shouldn't be spending this money if he doesn't have it to spend.

His MH may well preclude him from working currently, reality is nobody knows either way. But it doesn't preclude him from not living above his means and borrowing money from those around him just so he can buy what he wants. And he has a wife in the equation who clearly isn't doing anything to stop him spending on this level either.

I'm currently not working for various reasons but most recently I have a serious heart condition which has impacted hugely on my health/energy/fitness/ability to just be able to make it out the door. If I could find a job I have no doubt I could do it but finding an employer who will take me on at the moment is probably not a reasonable expectation, especially as on a bad day (and I've been having a couple of weeks of those of late) I can barely make it out of bed and when I do I am nauseous/light headed/find it difficult to do very much without feeling like passing out,)

I haven't gone down the ESA route because I'm told it takes over a year and I hope my condition will have improved by then by means of surgery. But I have no doubt that there are people out there who absolutely sympathise with my current inability to work.

I'd love a foreign holiday. I'm sure that my condition would allow for me sunbathing on the deck of a cruise ship for a couple of weeks, sailing around the islands of the Caribbean. But if I came here and said that I thought my family should stand guarantor on a loan for me so that I could have said holiday people would tell me that I don't have the financial means to afford it and as such, such luxuries should wait.

He can't afford to buy a new car, or a puppy, or a foreign holiday. The reasons why are irrelevant. The fact is, he can't afford it. That's all that counts. Expecting others to stand guarantor on the debts he has no intentions of paying back is unreasonable. Regardless of why he cannot pay those debts, given that he acquired them at the time he was out of work so his circumstances haven't changed.

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 · 20/07/2017 18:11

He can't afford to buy a new car, or a puppy, or a foreign holiday. The reasons why are irrelevant. The fact is, he can't afford it. That's all that counts.

Depression often causes reckless spending and his wife is probably unable to control that. Also see doobree re. the puppy.

I haven't gone down the ESA route because I'm told it takes over a year

It's been about nine years since I applied for ESA, but it only took a couple of months and they backdated it.

bananapower · 20/07/2017 18:17

Depression can be brutally incapacitating, obviously not for everyone with milder types but for me it has made working impossible. I can barely get out of bed and wash most days, so how on earth could I hold down a job? It's not simply a matter of forcing myself, I couldn't do that any more than a paralysed man could force himself to walk. Nevertheless, I do work hard on simply managing my condition, which means plenty of medical and therapy appointments which means I have plenty of evidence and support in claiming benefits. So although I cannot work, I do contribute to the family finances (to the tune of £1086 a month as I get maximum PIP and ESA, although that's a tiny fraction of DH's salary). So he should certainly be working towards getting his benefit claims awarded. I think cars and pets are certainly luxuries and not something I would consider paying for even though our household income is very high.

Daydream007 · 20/07/2017 18:37

Depression is an illness and often belittled by people who don't understand the impact it can have. Is he getting medical help? If not, one way you could help would be to encourage him to see his GP as a first port of call.

fc301 · 20/07/2017 18:45

Er daydream have u rtft?

WannaBe · 20/07/2017 19:09

"Depression often causes reckless spending and his wife is probably unable to control that." Of course she is. By not facilitating his taking out wreckless loans to buy cars and the like from her family. As are his parents, by not agreeing to go guarantor on said wreckless loans.

Honestly the amount of shite behaviour that is excused in the name of mental illness is shocking. He doesn't have the money. If he isn't responsible enough to be in control of money without spending it recklessly then he shouldn't be given access to it and the competent adults around him should cut off all his access to money to ensure that he doesn't spend it recklessly because of his mental illness which enables him to do as he likes without consequence because he has depression.

Either he's a competent adult, or he isn't. And if he isn't, then all decision making powers should be removed from him. If he is, then he needs to take some bloody responsibility for the position he has put himself in.

brasty · 20/07/2017 19:25

Someone with crippling depression can not move house every 6 months. Moving house is incredibly stressful.

RebornSlippy · 20/07/2017 19:29

bananapower In your post you mention that you can barely get out of bed most days. Yet, you go on to say you attend: "plenty of medical and therapy appointments which means I have plenty of evidence and support in claiming benefits". So are we to take this to mean that you can't get out of bed to work, but can get out of bed to ensure you are paid benefits?

I'm genuinely confused by this.

KarmaNoMore · 20/07/2017 19:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

doobree · 20/07/2017 21:01

People with "crippling depression" or other severe mental illness can and indeed do move house every 6 months or whenever. Sometimes they absolutely have to.

It doesn't mean they are in charge of the situation or its planning or execution. The OP's brother has a wife, perhaps it is her who is holding it all together. It doesn't mean that he did not have a crisis or replapse after the move.

Sometimes people have ideas that they are dead set on whether it is reasonable or not and can be quite divorced from reality and practical concerns. Again, that is mental illness for you. I'm sure the OP will understand of she has experienced manic phases with her bipolar.

You may well be confused RebornSlippy if you aren't familiar with mental illness. So perhaps you should be a little less to quick to jump to cynical conclusions about people suffering from illness.

People with depression or other mental health problems may (and often have to be) encouraged or persuaded or cajoled or dragged or threatened (and a letter saying if you don't attend something your money will be stopped is clearly a serious threat) or anything else to do various things they don't want or don't feel able to do. I can tell you there will be many days where the co-operation/ attendance simply does not happen. People without support simply fall through the cracks.

Doing a thing on a certain day or over a couple of days does not mean you don't have a serious mental health problem. People can appear to be able to do certain things but behind closed doors or left to their own devices people's capabilities can be quite different.

And often the problme is in consistently keeping up that level of 'performance' or co-operation or attendance or whatever, and also condtions fluctuate with stress, triggers, hormones, food heatlh, you name it, and often for no apparent reason at all. If you have seen the devastation and/or chaos up close or experienced it yourself, you and others would understand.

I think it is admirable that the family haven't simply turned their backs and washed their hands as happens to many people, but of course they did not want this outcome or to lose out financially. I don't suppose the brother or the wife do either.

There is no mention of the brother or wife having debt or being in turmoil before his illness, and the OP says he was working previously, so I don't know why there is such cynisim towards the situation. (Unless people just want to be mean.)

Incidentally, if he has National Insurance credits from working gained within a certain time period, around 2 years I think, he may be able to claim Contribution Based ESA not just the income related amount. The DWP do not always check for this so it would be really good to have the CAB look at his circumstances.

The CAB may be able to help with debt counselling and alternative credit sources. Perhaps the family could attend together and work out a plan and a budget. Small steps, some luck, as much support as you can get and (extreme) patience is the key.

doobree · 20/07/2017 21:11

And I don't mean key to success as if it is 2 +2 = 4 because it isn't; just the key to hopefully managing, avoiding things getting worse and hopefully to reocovery.

And trying not to lose all hope of a better outcome. Flowers to all those affected.

JamesBlonde1 · 20/07/2017 21:18

I hate it when people behave like this. They get themselves into financial difficulties and THEN decide it's a good idea to get 2 dogs. Why?!?! The mind fucking boggles.

Some people are really stupid and probably lazy.

If I was you I'd tell him to fuck off and keep away from my parents. Selfish, stupid behaviour. Pathetic!

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 · 20/07/2017 21:20

Some people are really stupid and probably lazy.

Ignorant bullshit alert.

RebornSlippy · 20/07/2017 21:36

Absolutely correct doobree. The cynic in me now believes that if it is possible to get yourself up, dressed, washed and out the door to secure money in the shape of benefits, it's possible to do so in other ways, like, oh I don't know, employment?

The OP's brother has no issues get out of the house it seems. He's moved several times, he has animals I presume he walks and he goes on holiday. The argument that he is somehow housebound due to crippling depression just doesn't wash with me. But hey, like you said, what do I know?

With the best will in the world, all of you who have jumped on this thread quoting your own mental health issues, giving us insight into how they can manifest and how they have affected your lives, none of you know this guy. The OP does though. As does his GP. Both suggest he gets a job, so I'm going with their take on this.

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 · 20/07/2017 21:46

if it is possible to get yourself up, dressed, washed and out the door to secure money in the shape of benefits, it's possible to do so in other ways, like, oh I don't know, employment?

Incorrect. I only had to go to the job centre every couple of months. Each and every time was distressing and I would regularly get washed and dressed and as it came to getting out the door I would panic and take all my clothes off (my logic being you can't go out if you're naked). My DH then had to cajole me into getting redressed so we weren't late.

Even on "good" days where I got ready without incident, I still couldn't have worked.

He's moved several times, he has animals I presume he walks and he goes on holiday. The argument that he is somehow housebound due to crippling depression just doesn't wash with me.

We moved a few times during my illness, and we had a pet for a short time. We also went on several holidays. I was still housebound due to my illness because I couldn't do anything alone outside the house.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 20/07/2017 21:51

Reborn
I don't agree with your first paragraph. Managing to get up and go to the GP or therapy once a week isn't comparable with working. Some people with depression would struggle with pressures and social interactions needed in most jobs. I am prepared to trust the OP's judgement that her DB isn't one of those people.

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