To tell my brother he needs to get a job despite depression

[mangovanila]

My brother and his wife are both 40, she has a son who's 22 but they don't have any children together. My brother hasn't worked in two years as he says his depression is too bad, SIL works every hour under the sun as a HCA even though her own health is deteriorating.

They lived in wales and decided they wanted to move back here to be closer to family so they gave up their council house to private rent. Every place they're in they decide they don't like and after six months they leave and go somewhere else. They've just moved in to a new flat which they seem to like and hopefully won't be moving anymore!

Her dad brought them a car around a year ago then asked for the money back! They didn't have it so they took out a loan for £4000 to repay her dad for the car. They managed to convince my mum and dad 66 and 69 to act as guarantors for this loan. They're retired but have worked hard all their life and own their home but have very little money. I think they sort of felt pressured to help their son out.

So they took the 4K out and a few months later they decided they where moving again so needed money for deposit etc and they decided they wanted to pay off all their debts in one hit. They increased the loan to a total of £1000 with repayments of around £400 a month. They moved but I don't see where this money went, they didn't even get a removal man, my 69 year old dad put all the stuff in the back of his 4x4 and moved it for them.

Recently brother and SIL have been going through financial difficulties. They brought two puppies, one who needed urgent medical attention which cleaned them out. He was telling me how he didn't know how he would even make the rent this month. He told me how they haven't been able to pay the loan repayments in 5 months so my mum has had to pay them as she's guarantor. They also left their old flat with one months rent owing which my mum had to pay as she stood guarantor and didn't want her credit rating affected. He was previously getting esa but has been taken away now due to SIL increased earnings.

So the other day my mum and dad went away in their caravan and they came back with no caravan. I asked what had happened and dad said they'd sold it to a man down there as they needed the money. They got around £2000 for it. They've just asked me if I could help them with the big food shop this month as they're broke.

Brother says he intends to start repayments as soon as they get back on track and says that hopefully they're getting some money soon from a personal injury claim SIL made from a car accident she had. I've asked him why he doesn't look for a job and he says he can't handle it.

AIBU if I tell him to man up and get a job because he has financial commitments? I wouldn't care if it wasn't for my mum and dad suffering because they've taken out loans they can't afford and my poor dad having to sell his caravan which he loves. I know some will think my parents are naive and stupid but I really think they just wanted to help him, even though they are out of pocket dramatically they will be content suffering if it means he has what he wants. They would do it for any of their kids but it doesn't make it right.

It's very hard to know whether to be on the fence about this or not.

I had a head injury and post concussion syndrome, and I couldn't work for about 3 months but I DID work because I felt guilty that I wasn't. It was in a very limited capacity and this made me feel even worse that I couldn't do it to my full potential, but I still worked anyway. I'm sure a medical professional would have deemed me fit to work, even though I didn't feel capable at the time, but I didn't ever have an assessment so will never know.

Now, my brother has been clinically depressed for many years, yet there are some who would deem him fit to work. Not now, as he is very ill with a terminal diagnosis, but there have been many a time when I've sat there and said 'what is actually stopping him from working? He is physically able to', yet when I've really thought about it, I've realised that mentally he just hasn't even be anywhere near doing a job properly. He has always been like this in many ways, but when depression goes on for years, you begin to realise the person may actually be very unwell and incapable.

I have also seen others who are on benefits and not depressed, but claim benefits as they 'don't want to get a job that won't pay as well as the benefits and I'll have to pay back some of my legal aid'. In fairness, I do find this slightly odd as this person is mentally capable of working, not depressed, yet have the attitude that benefits are there to be taken regardless of being capable of work.

I don't quite know what my point is here, probably just to say, different people in different circumstances may justify their reasons to work or not, whether you agree with it or whether it is right etc is another matter entirely.

As far as I understand it, being referred to a fit for work scheme does not mean you are fit for work. Many people on them are signed off from work while they get specialist help to prepare them for work.

Indeed. I remember a paranoid schizophrenic having to appeal a decision when they were declared fit for work.

Clearly he should have just 'manned up'

The doctor has said he should look for work

So why is he happy to take pills..... one half of the diagnosis..... but not the other!

What does he do with his time all day op?

The doctor has said he should look for work

No. He's been advised to look for part time work. Obviously after the DWPs miracle centres.

So why is he happy to take pills..... one half of the diagnosis..... but not the other!

This makes no sense. If he's been prescribed pills someone professional somewhere obviously thinks he needs them.
Contrary to popular belief they're not actually handed out like smarties.

Your parents have been enabling your brother's behaviour by lending him this money! I can understand the desire to help your children but this has clearly just made him dependent and hasn't really helped on any meaningful level.

Of course he shouldn't have got dogs when he couldn't afford them. Same with a £4K car -- both the car and the dogs should have been sold/rehomed.

Hard to say whether your brother is able to work or not. Although he has been assessed as fit for work, he sounds like he is struggling to even engage with the concept. It must be frustrating. But at the very least he could be selling the things he does have, in order to meet his commitments to your poor parents.

OP everyone is saying you don't get it. I don't really care much one way or the other about his reasons for not 'manning up' as you put it. What I will say from experience is that it will not go well, it will change your relationship forever. Even when you know you are justified. I'm of course talking from personal experience.

If you think it will make life easier for your parents and therefore you, by all means.

The SIL may need the car for work.

The SIL may need the car for work.

Away the OP has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I think she clearly has some knowledge of mental health issues.

Also the OP has known her DB her entire life and is probably in a better position to judge his behaviour than us. Her comments do not warrant the personal attacks.

And yes, having a benefits system that provides a safety net is a luxury that very few citizens around the world have access to.

Thing is if he had a broken leg there are still plenty of jobs he can do.

I sort of think if he can plan and go on holiday, deal with two puppies and the stress of frequent house moves surely he can find a job somewhere even for a few hours to try to help the situation.

But of course I shouldn't say that, or that if they can't afford their debt they bloody well shouldn't be getting a goldfish never mind 2 puppies and definitely shouldn't be having a holiday! Because you know, some people with depression have a compulsion to shop... well he shouldn't be shopping, he doesn't have the money!

But your parents are enabling his behaviour. They need to see what they can do to get out of these debts. They could do with speaking to someone about this, maybe the legal people mentioned by a PP. I would do what you can to support them, but maybe add in they aren't helping your DBro's situation and so you will help and support whilst they are trying to get out of this but then you won't help again as they aren't helping your DBro to function.

@mangovanila YABU and you seem to have no understanding about depressions. Too many generalisations, and I can see why some PPs are getting irate.

However, there are things you can do to help. If you can afford to give your parents a gift (not a loan) to help them with their food shopping, do so. Have a talk with them too, about them stop supporting your DB. There is no point them all being (potentially) destitute. They can no longer afford to be a guarantor, things change, but potentially could offer DB and SIL a bed/mattress/sofa to sleep on, should it come to that. That is still offering support, but keeping your parents within their means.

If you are concerned that your DB is not exercising, have you offered to go with him? It could be something simple like running round the block together as that wouldn't cost anything. It's easy to 'get up and do something' when you're mentally capable; when you're depressed it's fucking difficult.

Your DB also needs to be talked to about giving away the dogs. Whilst I appreciate pets have a therapeutic effect, if he cannot afford to keep them, costs are spiralling causing his depression to deepen, it's not working. Could you/your parents take the dog, and allow him to visit every day? Or is there somewhere he could volunteer/look after animals, but doesn't have the financial responsibility?

Yes I do have the full story on his health issues as I was responsible for putting together his evidence etc when he appealed the claim for esa which was again rejected. He is diagnosed with "moderate depression" and is on 100mg of sertraline.

I think the OP probably does have a pretty clear idea of his health issues if she put together his ESA appeal.

If we did not have the generous benefit system

We don't have a generous benefits system, we have a miserly one that forces people who really could do with time to regroup and recover to try to work.

HOWEVER. From what you've said I think your brother is not managing his illness well. In an ideal world he'd be much better supported through the NHS and MH services but he's not. And the basic facts of all of this are that he CAN'T keep spending money he doesn't have.

So what I think you should do about it is refuse to enable it anymore. Don't give your parents cash, don't give him cash or anything of value. Don't prop it up.

Be kind, be empathetic, be gentle by all means: but actually I do think he needs to reassess where he is right now and either get the right medical evidence sorted to reflect his true state (perhaps a change of GP or something?) OR listen to what the professionals are saying and actually go to the gym and try to get a small job.

the OP has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I think she clearly has some knowledge of mental health issues.

Well then she should know better than anyone how mental health conditions can vary then.

I can't quite understand why your parents are enabling his selfish behaviour. The very first thing you must do, OP is to help your parents to a decision not to bankroll him any more. They may be stuck with being guarantor on present debts but need to draw a line under it there and disengage themselves from your brother. Beyond this it is down to him, he certainly can't expect to keep being subsidised by others.

BluePancakes
The OP has bi-polar I expect she does know a bit about depression.

And won't do exercise.....which also helps with depression

Yes of course. Because no one needs pills for chemical imbalance of the brain. They just need to step on a treadmill / go for a walk/go meditate in the woods.

Not all treatments work for everyone.

He is diagnosed with "moderate depression" and is on 100mg of sertraline.

On what basis was his appeal rejected?

Occupational Therapist here.

I don't think you're being unreasonable to be honest but there's a way to broach it with him. It needs to come across in a way which expresses concern for him and your parents. A job could be a great boost to his mood and self esteem. Being part of a team, doing something productive, earning some money himself so he can contribute.

Alternatively, depression may not be the reason he isn't working, he might be blinkered, selfish irresponsible and lazy (leaving rent unpaid and buying dogs doesn't fill me with hope) and it may have nothing to do with an illness. Who knows!

If he hasn't worked for years he might be scared of rejection, may be very anxious etc.

I feel like it is your business, sounds like you'll be the sibling relied on when your parents eventually need care and it's impacting on you now they are asking for money from you.

You can't make him do anything he doesn't want to though ultimately and I can see this leading to a fall out.

He knew when he took it out he wouldn't be able to afford it but still got two new puppies and managed to go to Greece for 2 weeks last month

Your brother is an asshole. Focus on your parents to see how you can get them out of the commitment to cover his lazy ass and disown that selfish bastard!

I don't know your brother so can't comment on his fitness to work. I would say though that it sounds like both your BIL and SIL have made some pretty selfish and irresponsible decisions with money. The reality is if you owe money and are struggling you don't move house, buy two puppies or go on a two week holiday to Greece.

The best thing you can do is not get sucked into it. As harsh as it sounds, bailing your parents out by buying them groceries is just spiralling the issue. Your parents need to stop acting as guarantor for your brother and giving him cash if they can't afford it, which they clearly can't.

The brother didn't have to spend 4K on a car. 2k would have got something