To tell my brother he needs to get a job despite depression

[mangovanila]

My brother and his wife are both 40, she has a son who's 22 but they don't have any children together. My brother hasn't worked in two years as he says his depression is too bad, SIL works every hour under the sun as a HCA even though her own health is deteriorating.

They lived in wales and decided they wanted to move back here to be closer to family so they gave up their council house to private rent. Every place they're in they decide they don't like and after six months they leave and go somewhere else. They've just moved in to a new flat which they seem to like and hopefully won't be moving anymore!

Her dad brought them a car around a year ago then asked for the money back! They didn't have it so they took out a loan for £4000 to repay her dad for the car. They managed to convince my mum and dad 66 and 69 to act as guarantors for this loan. They're retired but have worked hard all their life and own their home but have very little money. I think they sort of felt pressured to help their son out.

So they took the 4K out and a few months later they decided they where moving again so needed money for deposit etc and they decided they wanted to pay off all their debts in one hit. They increased the loan to a total of £1000 with repayments of around £400 a month. They moved but I don't see where this money went, they didn't even get a removal man, my 69 year old dad put all the stuff in the back of his 4x4 and moved it for them.

Recently brother and SIL have been going through financial difficulties. They brought two puppies, one who needed urgent medical attention which cleaned them out. He was telling me how he didn't know how he would even make the rent this month. He told me how they haven't been able to pay the loan repayments in 5 months so my mum has had to pay them as she's guarantor. They also left their old flat with one months rent owing which my mum had to pay as she stood guarantor and didn't want her credit rating affected. He was previously getting esa but has been taken away now due to SIL increased earnings.

So the other day my mum and dad went away in their caravan and they came back with no caravan. I asked what had happened and dad said they'd sold it to a man down there as they needed the money. They got around £2000 for it. They've just asked me if I could help them with the big food shop this month as they're broke.

Brother says he intends to start repayments as soon as they get back on track and says that hopefully they're getting some money soon from a personal injury claim SIL made from a car accident she had. I've asked him why he doesn't look for a job and he says he can't handle it.

AIBU if I tell him to man up and get a job because he has financial commitments? I wouldn't care if it wasn't for my mum and dad suffering because they've taken out loans they can't afford and my poor dad having to sell his caravan which he loves. I know some will think my parents are naive and stupid but I really think they just wanted to help him, even though they are out of pocket dramatically they will be content suffering if it means he has what he wants. They would do it for any of their kids but it doesn't make it right.

Contrary to popular belief they're not actually handed out like smarties.
That's wrong. It is just not too hard to go and take them from your GP.
Let me ask a question here: let's say you have a long term health problem that is manageable using tablets AND the doctor says you should start to get back to work as the tablets will help you with that. Why would you then keep sitting on your backside to not go out and look for work?
I think YANBU op. I know people who manage long term health disorders, the ones that affect both mental AND physical health. Doctors say to carry on so the body tries to keep fighting back as it tackles new challenges. He is hardly old at 40. Don't bail them out anymore. They know someone will come and sort it all out again one way or the other. May be this is the best thing you can do forhim as a family.

^Contrary to popular belief they're not actually handed out like smarties.
That's wrong. It is just not too hard to go and take them from your GP.^

No it is not wrong.

100mg of sertraline is not usually the starting point. 50mg usually is. It is VERY hard to get ADs from the doctors. It is not a case of waltzing into the doctors, 'putting it on' and walking away with a prescription so you can claim ESA.

If you know the new arseholes GPs get from institutions like the Care Quality Commission for being lax with their prescription procedures you'll know how ignorant that assumption is.

I have depression and manage to work (in a bloody stressful job too)

That's not relevant though. Depression affects people in different ways.

Let me ask a question here: let's say you have a long term health problem that is manageable using tablets AND the doctor says you should start to get back to work as the tablets will help you with that. Why would you then keep sitting on your backside to not go out and look for work?

His Dr didnt say that. The DWP did. A quick google will show up the bonkers fit for work decisions they make. The Dr told him he should try and look for part time work. Maybe read the thread next time?

the OP has bipolar. I think she has more knowledge about MH problems than most people

Not necessarily. I suffer from depression & anxiety. Doesn't mean I'm clued up on bipolar doe it?

.....aaaaand once again, depression or not, being a sponging arsehole is not ok. You all seem to be arguing the wrong point and pearl clutching over this 'poor man with depression' who can't possibly work or do anything but can quite happily buy cars and animals he can't afford at the expense of someone else.

Depression is awful. We know.

Depression affects everyone differently. WE KNOW.

It does not, however, mean that you are excused from decent behaviour. In the same way that if you had cancer you don't get to be a shit to everybody - that's not how it works.

In my experience depression can make people selfish. It may well be that he can't see the consequences of his actions. Your parents need to stop bailing him out and he needs to get a bloody job

That's not relevant though. Depression affects people in different ways.

That's not relevant. Some people can. Some people can't.

aaaaand once again, depression or not, being a sponging arsehole is not ok. You all seem to be arguing the wrong point and pearl clutching over this 'poor man with depression' who can't possibly work or do anything but can quite happily buy cars and animals he can't afford at the expense of someone else..

Pointing out that a man suffering from depression should just 'man up' is pearl clutching?

That's not relevant. Some people can. Some people can't.

Did you not read what I wrote? I'm saying that since some people with depression can work and some can't one poster's ability to work in a stressful job has no relevance on the op's brother being able to work or not.

In my experience depression can make people selfish. It may well be that he can't see the consequences of his actions

Indeed. Including making irrational decisions like buying cars and puppies they don't need. Doesn't make it right of course and his parents do need to stop bailing him out of course.

Sorry PurpleDaisies yes I was meant to be responding to the 'I have depression but work' comment but quoted you instead. Apologies.

If he is so ill that he makes decisions with money that are so bad it's putting his well being at risk, perhaos you could investigate a power of attorney with his partner? Re money.

*the OP has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I think she clearly has some knowledge of mental health issues.

Also the OP has known her DB her entire life and is probably in a better position to judge his behaviour than us. Her comments do not warrant the personal attacks*

I agree with this.

Op as your brother's GP seems to be strongly encouraging your brother to look for part time work I don't think that you are at all unreasonable to echo the doctor's advice.

There are lots of posters here excusing your brother's behaviour based on their own experience and assumptions about depression. Lots have said that every person suffering is different they are absolutely right, just because they can't work with depression it doesn't mean your brother can't either. I'm also not lacking experience with mental health issues, several times I have been given a sick note from my GP saying I wasn't well enough to work due to depression but I have continued to work anyway because I felt it would have made my work life difficult thereby causing me more problems in the long run.

As for your parents I think any help you offer them should be on condition that the extricate themselves from your brother's mess.

Serra line is a 1st line antidepressant and 100mg daily is a moderate dose. How long has he been on this dose op?

If his gp felt this was not beneficial they would have increased the dose and/or commenced him on a different/accompanying medication.

Has he ever been referred for specialist input op? Such as CPN, psychiatrist, CBT, counselling? These are indicators that his gp and/or other health professionals feel his condition is or has been significant in the past.

(I say this as a health professional and as someone who has had major depression in the past, highly medicated and lots of input. I'm still trying to wean myself off the medication).

Setraline

PurpleDaisies I have no option but to work!
I have a young child, a mortgage, responsibilities, commitments. How do you know how my depression affects me?
Clearly you must know, as you're obviously such an expert on MH.

It's super easy to get anti depressants, I've been offered them many times and could go get a prescription for them right now no problem. I could get my DH them if I took him to the dr and told him what to say - no history of depression at all. You can't prove depression, you go on what people say. SSRIs are pretty safe so GPs are very comfortable prescribing them and don't need patients to try other things first. It's the cheap and easy way to 'treat' depression- not always most effective due to side effects and individual brain chemistry but lots of evidence to give GPs confidence to prescribe as a first resort.

Unfortunately the OP can't help except to encourage her parents never to make themselves vulnerable to financial abuse again. Her brother has behaved very badly regardless of his health issues. The only person who can change things for her brother is her brother. He has to want to improve his life and sometimes wallowing and hitting the bottom is needed. Anti depressants and counselling can prop us up so we can start making changes but it can't make the changes for us. I find small changes over time most helpful and ACT therapy has worked to help me achieve this. Although I still can't face some stuff many days. I do find working makes a difference but it's individual and he has to find what works for him. Going to the gym is great but it's hard to start initially and to build a routine.

Is your SIL not concerned about the loan, surely she is most able to help him as his partner?

I don't blame you OP for being upset that your parents are relying on handouts for there basic necessities!

Your brother and his wife need to take control of there finiacial situation, have you asked them to seek some sort of debt management plan?

Your brother can work even if it's only 1 day a week until he can build this up, £30-£40 per day is better than £0

Just saying, I'm deemed "fit to work" with extreme anxiety and depression on top of other mental health disorders and phobias that the NHS won't even consider diagnosing, so YABU if you think he should still be able to get a job just because the government is shitty and could give less of a toss about mental health.

If my kids where starving, I couldn't care what issues I had going on, I would do anything to provide for them

It is easy to talk shit about what you'd do or not do until mental health issues hit you. I sincerely hope you don't find out how utterly dehabilitating it can be.

The thing is with depression is that it is ongoing, a broken leg you know will be fixed in a fairly strictly defined time period and that the leg will get stronger over time. Depression doesn't work like that, it is often chronic and unpredictable, things often not 100% compatible with a job. I do work, but have been fortunate enough to work in an organisation where there's less stigma around mental health. I'm lucky, but some employers have similarly pig ignorant views to you and in the current jobs market aren't queuing up to offer jobs to people with ongoing health issues and as a consequence patchy employment histories.

Wow, amazing how the OP - who also has MH issues with bipolar is being called pig ignorant.
The reality is none of us know if he's got severe depression or not. She knows him, we don't.
His own GP (who also knows him better than anyone on here) has said he should be proactive and find part time work.

I find it amazing how all the MH 'experts'on here, defend him and yet are being completely nasty to the OP.

Wow, amazing how the OP - who also has MH issues with bipolar is being called pig ignorant

A lot of stress is also being put on her (by her parents) and also on her SIL to feed the chain that looks after her brother. The potential effect on her, her SIL (who has health issues) and the elderly parents has been quite overlooked.

BoysofMelody

It is easy to talk shit about what you'd do or not do until mental health issues hit you. I sincerely hope you don't find out how utterly dehabilitating it can be.

The OP has bi-polar, she knows exactly what she would do when mental health issues hit because she is doing it right now.

Awaywiththe Pixies
The old name for Bi-Polar is Manic Depression as the sufferer cycles between manic phases and depressive phases. The OP probably knows a far bit about depression / low mood.

Op I am in a very similar position, it's difficult to decide when and if you should step in.

He should be working, he needs to step up and get on with his life, and stop mooching of his mum and dad.