To tell my brother he needs to get a job despite depression

[mangovanila]

My brother and his wife are both 40, she has a son who's 22 but they don't have any children together. My brother hasn't worked in two years as he says his depression is too bad, SIL works every hour under the sun as a HCA even though her own health is deteriorating.

They lived in wales and decided they wanted to move back here to be closer to family so they gave up their council house to private rent. Every place they're in they decide they don't like and after six months they leave and go somewhere else. They've just moved in to a new flat which they seem to like and hopefully won't be moving anymore!

Her dad brought them a car around a year ago then asked for the money back! They didn't have it so they took out a loan for £4000 to repay her dad for the car. They managed to convince my mum and dad 66 and 69 to act as guarantors for this loan. They're retired but have worked hard all their life and own their home but have very little money. I think they sort of felt pressured to help their son out.

So they took the 4K out and a few months later they decided they where moving again so needed money for deposit etc and they decided they wanted to pay off all their debts in one hit. They increased the loan to a total of £1000 with repayments of around £400 a month. They moved but I don't see where this money went, they didn't even get a removal man, my 69 year old dad put all the stuff in the back of his 4x4 and moved it for them.

Recently brother and SIL have been going through financial difficulties. They brought two puppies, one who needed urgent medical attention which cleaned them out. He was telling me how he didn't know how he would even make the rent this month. He told me how they haven't been able to pay the loan repayments in 5 months so my mum has had to pay them as she's guarantor. They also left their old flat with one months rent owing which my mum had to pay as she stood guarantor and didn't want her credit rating affected. He was previously getting esa but has been taken away now due to SIL increased earnings.

So the other day my mum and dad went away in their caravan and they came back with no caravan. I asked what had happened and dad said they'd sold it to a man down there as they needed the money. They got around £2000 for it. They've just asked me if I could help them with the big food shop this month as they're broke.

Brother says he intends to start repayments as soon as they get back on track and says that hopefully they're getting some money soon from a personal injury claim SIL made from a car accident she had. I've asked him why he doesn't look for a job and he says he can't handle it.

AIBU if I tell him to man up and get a job because he has financial commitments? I wouldn't care if it wasn't for my mum and dad suffering because they've taken out loans they can't afford and my poor dad having to sell his caravan which he loves. I know some will think my parents are naive and stupid but I really think they just wanted to help him, even though they are out of pocket dramatically they will be content suffering if it means he has what he wants. They would do it for any of their kids but it doesn't make it right.

If he's the driving force behind all this.... moving/dogs/ lending money then I wouldn't be surprised if sil leaves him at some point in the near future

the vicious cycle with depression is that people don't fancy going to work because the idea makes them nervous, they spend a lot of time in an irrational black hole, but in doing so they build up a list of screw ups that they could rationally judge themselves as bad people for doing - getting into debt, being a burden on elderly parents etc. That builds up the cycle of feeling worthless by adding to the negative feelings with actual bad behaviour.

if he just has mild depression I think that he will really benefit from the self worth of getting a part time job.

What will happen if the money stops from your parents? Is it worth having a chat with his wife? that dependency can't be helping his self esteem either.

Different people are motivated by different approaches, so it is hard to give advice without knowing him, but usually people need caring, supportive, but hard to resist directives. as opposed to harsh criticism.

Whether he is genuinely too ill to work, or just an idle bastard, or whether his overspending is a symptom of his depression aside...shouldn't his DP be able to reign in the holiday/puppy spending? There's nothing to suggest she's depressed too.

What's her take on all this?

I think you are mixing a lot of issues there.
I would take anything to do with the esa with a pinch of salt. But if his GP says he would be better with exercising or going to work even part time then that tells me he can do some work and that he might well feel better for it. Of corse this will depend on the type of job too (eg a very stressful job is unlikely to help someone who is depressed)

Then there is the issue of being unable to budget and constantly asking money form your parents. I think he ought to reimburse them and look at living within his means.
I would advise your parents not to give him any more money. Help them if you can and insist on your dbro to pay them back. But don't plan on him doing so iyswim.

The reality is that you can't tell your dbro what to do. He should feel the moral obligation to pay his parents back. And the guilt of having put them in such a hard position. If he doesn't, he is unlikely to want to do anything to solve the issue :( so telling him to go to work isn't going to help (regardless of whether he can or can't work)

Oh an saupport your dparents first. That's where you will make the most difference.

OP, can you offer some practical assistance by finding some advice agency such as CAB to work with both your parents and DB to work out the best way to manage this debt? Worst case scenario is your parents' home being at risk.

Db sounds as if he's become very comfortable with his current status quo and sees no reason to change things. SIL is massively enabling him which is quite odd. The constant moving is bizarre.

I agree he should be engaging with some sort of work related activities even if finding work that suits is a challenge. Having two young dogs will now be an ideal excuse for needing to be at home. I'm afraid you will get nowhere with him so trying to protect your parents is the only sensible action.

So much projection here I'm sure they can read this thread in space. Par for the course on MN when the mere possibility that someone is exaggerating a mental health issue is suggested.

OP, YANBU. Your brother seems to be doing precisely nothing to help himself safe in the knowledge that others are there to take care of business. He needs to take responsibility. If he can't, then he needs to stop spending, moving and holidaying while his wife, parents and sister fund/enable his lifestyle.

As for your parents, I really feel for them. This is not what we expect in our twilight years from our grown children. Hopefully this will be the last time they agree to guarantor anything for your brother.

OP - you're getting a lot of shit on this thread, which I don't think you deserve. The issue seems to be about lifestyle than ability to work. It's pretty fucking obvious that he can't afford to live the way he wants to and I agree with you - there's no way he should be putting this pressure on anyone else. He's out of order and he's medically fit to look for work so YANBU.

You can't frogmarch your brother into the job centre and set him to work. You can offer practical advice and support to your parents: they need to withdraw from being guarantors and helping your brother out financially - ideally until the current loan has been paid back. I would push for a standing order to be set up, however small.

I've got depression and am very limited to what I can do work wise at present so am on ESA.

Everyone is an individual of course. However, I'm a bit as to just how depressed must he be if he can move house so frequently (decision making, upheaval) go on holiday abroad (more decision making, organising, lots of stressful and anxiety provoking situations, more upheaval) etc. These kind of things would be beyond me.

I don't think you are unreasonable in suggesting to your brother that he looks for some work. As he is not getting any benefits ANYTHING he can do will help bring in money. Or even if he gets a voluntary job for a few hours a week, so that he can then build up confidence to get a paid job, that would be a start.

Your brother and SIL would be best to get their priorities straight with their current income. They can't realistically afford pets/holidays or house moves in their situation. If they have debts they cannot pay they could go to Citizens Advice to see if someone can support them to work out budget/reducing payments on debts etc, and maybe to appeal your brothers ESA/check the couple for other benefit entitlements.

Your parents need to draw a line under this and refuse to guarantor ANYTHING for them any longer. I hope they are not guarantors on their new flat. If they are I would suggest they seek advice to work out what they can do to get out of it once the initial tenancy period has finished. I'd suggest if they can't afford food etc and your brother and SIL aren't doing anything re the loan, then your parents need to work out a different payment amount for the loan i.e. less per month. They shouldn't have to go without food to service a debt.

I will point out again that if someone cannot afford to pay a loan, they should set up a budget plan and have it agreed with the creditor.

The creditor will look at the plan and agree to reduced loan payments based on rules about amounts people need to live on.

That amount will include costs submitted for pets owned.

This whole thing of giving pets away is a nonsense, and not what people would be told by a debt charity.

The most helpful thing the OP can do is to talk to the parents and get agreement with them to tell the brother and SIL should get help with how to manage debt.

If they don't have the ability to manage money and think it is plausible to pay back 400 quid a month on a low income, him getting a job will not teach them how to cope with debt and make sensible arrangements. They need professional help from a charity, rather than a whole load of moralising.

Actually I don't think this constant signing people off work for depression is helpful, and I speak as someone who has had poor mental health issues in the past.

It encourages helplessness and of course you're going to feel depressed at home in your pyjamas watching Richard and Judy.

I think depressed people need to stay in work, albeit with some understanding from their employer. It's far better in the long run and avoids issues like this.

Depression is a serious condition. Getting two puppies you can't support and being able to go on holiday to Greece is a different matter. Utter piss take.

Sometimes you have to let people help themselves. Sadly.

There are two separate issues here and I think it's a mistake to lump them together. 1- brother is suffering from depression, and may feel unable to work. Not his fault and should absolutely not be told to 'man up' and get a job. 2- brother and sil are utterly shit at budgeting within their means and are quite happy to sponge off parents for non essential items to the point that it's causing them hardship. That is really crappy behaviour and OP WNBU to pull him up on it.

Depression is a serious condition. Getting two puppies you can't support and being able to go on holiday to Greece is a different matter. Utter piss take.

Unless he is undiagnosed bipolar too. The dogs and holiday aspects certainly sound reckless and irresponsible. But I'd want to work out why he was behaving like that. Bipolar being one of a range of possible explanations.

How does leaping directly to the conclusion that he's wilfully feckless, and going down hard on him, help anything!

? not !

SIL's judgement has been a bit lacking, too.
And spending problems can be part of an MH problem without bipolar. And when your depressed your GP will make suggestions- like a job or yoga or gping for a walk, that doesn't necessarily mean you can do those things.

But, they are two grown ups and I'd let them get on with it. I wouldn't continually bail my parents out either. I'd buy the shop they needed, that would be all.

He sounds more personality disordered than depressed to be honest.

Actually I don't think this constant signing people off work for depression is helpful, and I speak as someone who has had poor mental health issues in the past.

You are not immediately / always signed off for work with a diagnosis of depression. You are signed off work when a medical health professional feels that placing you in a work situation at the time would lead to you either being a risk to yourself, or a risk to others.

Many people manage to work whilst suffering from depression. Some dont manage it. Such is depression.

OP, not knowing your brother I can't judge whether he can work or not but your parents surely have some responsibility here to not keep giving him money? I don't mean to sound horrible, your parents sound lovely and kind, but I do think they are enabling him. There is a point at which people let others use them and walk over them, and however ill your brother is, they shouldn't be letting him. The blame is not solely with your brother.

AwayWithThePixies you are correct. It is not the diagnosis that gets you ESA it is how that diagnosis affects you and how badly. Because depression is a broad category and people are affected differently.

I've only read about half the comments because it was starting to piss me off. OP getting a lot of flack re comments about brother's depression.

NEWSFLASH: depression does not give you free reign to be a sponging arsehole, neither does it entirely preclude you from working.

Bumdishcloths - I agree, and Diana and Dangermouse make a lot of sensible points.

He needs to get to work - as his doctor says. Sitting around doing nothing year in year out is no road to recovery.

YABVVU. I assume he's been declared unfit for work, so. Your closed minded get a job shite. Is neither here nor there.
Its so sad and frightening, really, than in 2017. People are still so uneducated about MH.
Supposing he goes back to work and ends up running a mock there. You hear of these things

awwlookatmybabyspider - the OP has bipolar. I think she has more knowledge about MH problems than most people

OP I agree that you're getting a rough time on here.
I have depression and manage to work (in a bloody stressful job too) I'm also a lone parent.

These people on this thread wading in and giving you a hard time are bloody hypocrites - it's fine for them to give you a hard time using bullying language in some cases (you, someone who also has a MH condition) but defend your feckless sounding brother . SMH.