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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Was this a cheeky thing to ask?

163 replies

gardendispute · 06/07/2017 14:39

I have namechanged for this as it is potentially outing.
I own a property with a small mortgage which my dsis lives in, she has lived there for approximately five years. Dsis pays just enough rent to cover the mortgage and costs such as buildings insurance, which is around half of the amount that it would fetch on the open rental market. This situation came about as we were due to move out when dsis needed somewhere to live, so we held of renting or selling it and she moved in. This is a family sized home and dsis lives there by herself.

The aibu is that i have asked dsis if i would be able to use the large garden on the house for my baby dc's birthday party as it has large patio doors leading from the kitchen and a decking area, our own garden is currently in the process of being done up. It would be a small family party with no small children from outside of the family, so no chance of her possessions being ruined. I asked her as a favour as i am doing her a massive favour by letting her live there, her response was that no you can't as i dont want people walking on my grass, technically its not even her grass!
Is she being unreasonable or should i be treating her like any other tenant, even though she is my sister? Am i expecting too much from her and being cheeky? I need an outsiders perspective on this please! I am prepared to accept that i may be being unreasonable.

OP posts:

kittybiscuits · 06/07/2017 15:41

Agreed - you are asking for a small favour and you are doing her a huge favour on an ongoing basis. I think she will be difficult to get out of your property and I would also say time to pay full market rent or move out. And if it were me, I would prefer the latter.

Wormulonian · 06/07/2017 15:43

Even if your DSis was living in a house she owned it was a reasonable request to ask to use the garden for a small family party as yours was out of action. Given you are close it was a bit mean of her.

Now you have DC perhaps it is time to look at renting the house at market rate and for your sister to move on. The extra money will be invaluable in helping to pay for extras and schooling or other investments to help your DC in life.

GahBuggerit · 06/07/2017 15:46

Well 7 year olds can think fairly simplistically I admit......

Still, it is a fact that the sister isnt responsible for any loss of income to the OP. That is on the OP for not charging more / renting it out. Unless of course as I say the sister forced OP to charge what she is charging.

Maybe ask your 7 year old this - you have a game that you want to sell. You can sell it for £50 to a stranger or for £20 to a friend. You decide to sell the game to your friend. Is it your friends fault you only sold it for £20?

SaveMeBarry · 06/07/2017 15:47

I don't think you were at all cheeky to ask and it's very mean and petty of her to say no . To be quite honest your relationship sounds a bit one way traffic. Seems to be working quite nicely for her though...

WillRikersExtraNipple · 06/07/2017 15:48

Logically is the word, Buggerit. You seem to be very confused with the difference between one off sales and ongoing rental, for one thing. Just admit that you don't really understand and people will help you, no shame in it.

GahBuggerit · 06/07/2017 15:50

I know theres no shame, as I didnt feel an ounce of pity towards you when I had to explain it in very basic terms :)

KurriKurri · 06/07/2017 15:51

Do you act as landlord in that you do any repairs/replacements needed in the house? If this is the case then she's getting a really good deal.If she pays for upkeep then this to some extent off sets lower rent. (For example has she just paid to have the lawn returfed?) I sort of see her viewpoint as in it's her home for which she pays and agreed sum and she may see it as a bit of an invasion of privacy to have a party there. But this would hold more sway with me if she was a friend rather than a sister.

In her position I wouldn't hesitate to let you have the party in the garden because you are her sister and your child is her niece and I'd want to help you out even if I owned the house.

kittybiscuits · 06/07/2017 15:52

Are 7 year olds posting on MN now?

Time40 · 06/07/2017 15:54

That's really mean of her.

Five years is a very long time - you have lost an awful lot of money by being so kind to your sister. I'd increase the rent to a market rate, now, if I were you.

KinkyAfro · 06/07/2017 15:54

She's bang out of order

Kintan · 06/07/2017 15:55

I agree with the previous posters who said you should let her know that you'll be putting her rent up to market rate if you and her are no longer doing each other favours. Even if you have no real intention of doing so, maybe suggesting this to her will make her see how unreasonable and ungrateful she is being towards you.

kittybiscuits · 06/07/2017 15:57

Is your sister a mumsnetter BTW OP?

TheMysteriousJackelope · 06/07/2017 15:58

If I was renting somewhere for years at 50% of market rate from a relative I would regard it as a massive favor and be grateful to have the opportunity to return it. If I was worried about possessions being damaged, I'd move them into another room and lock its door. If you kept asking to use the garden I'd be a bit put out, but low rent comes with inconveniences.

That she never invites you around for a meal but is happy to go to your house over and over again for Sunday lunch indicates to me that she is selfish and probably tight with her money.

ChocolateWombat · 06/07/2017 15:58

This doesn't really have anything to do with the rental agreement terms.

She lives there. It is her home. She pays whatever was agreed. The deal wasn't that she pays a low rate and in return has to allow you access to the garden or other facilities. Therefore you should not have an expectation that she is obliged to say yes to this because of the low rent.

As your sister, you might hope that wherever she lived, she would be willing to let you use her garden for her nieces party. You could be a bit disappointed that she isn't willing to, but again, being a sister gives you no right to such things.

You sound grudging about the God deal she is getting re rent. Either continue and do it with good grace and no strings attached, or consider altering the terms if you are not satisfied with them. Having a time limit before review, even when dealing with family is a good idea, because circumstances can change and it makes discussing-re visiting the issues easier.

RandomMess · 06/07/2017 16:00

Interest rates are going to go up soon, you need to start increasing her rent. As you have a legal tenancy agreement you will limited by how much you can do so. I suggest you start now before renting out this house to your dsis starts costing you money!!!

annielouise · 06/07/2017 16:02

Too many blurred lines. You're doing her a favour with a lower than market average rent so as your sister you expected her to grant the favour seeing as you asked nicely. Strange she didn't and I understand you being pissed off.

I would tell her straight you're annoyed as you do her a favour every month to the amount of say £200 (if that is the difference between market rent and what she pays). Also you feed her and have loaned her the lawnmower (saying that as her landlord if you want her to do the garden you need to provide her with one).

The lines are blurred. Depends whether you want to maintain a relationship with your sister or not. And the same goes for her. Perhaps she needs to know you're doing her this big favour. You can quietly seethe and not say anything or you can talk about it.

I would reduce the rent for family but not to the extent it appears you have. There is a happy medium higher than what she pays but in that event you don't ask for stuff like the use of the garden.

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow1 · 06/07/2017 16:04

YANBU

Sisters should help each other out where possible at all times.

I'm guessing you're the giver and she's the taker. That won't ever change.

AcrossthePond55 · 06/07/2017 16:04

It's a difficult situation. One one hand you are giving her a break on rent. On the other she is technically your tenant with a tenant's legal rights. If you wouldn't ask it of a regular tenant you shouldn't expect it from her. It's fine to ask since she's your sister, but it's more in the line of asking any sister who happens to have a nicer yard.

Please don't let this eat at you. Tell her you are disappointed and hurt but don't let this fester. Don't raise her rent or evict her out of anger or spite. If you feel you want to raise the rent to cover more of the expenses, fine. But don't do it for revenge.

Floggingmolly · 06/07/2017 16:05

Would you leave Gah alone now? It's perfectly correct to say that op has indeed lost (quite a lot of) potential rental income by subsiding her sister but the sister isn't responsible for that, as op has apparently done it without any coercion.
Sister is still a cow, though...

DownstairsMixUp · 06/07/2017 16:06

She's being hugely unreasonable. If she wants to be treated as just a tenant ignoring the sister link then she can pay full rent to.

lifeisntallhaha · 06/07/2017 16:08

You obviously think she owes you this favour in return for her low rent but that's a tenancy agreement with invisible strings attached. Perhaps she sees the garden party idea as the thin end of the wedge.

Whilst she pays rent (no matter how low) she has a right to treat that space as her own. You need to sit down with her and clarify expectations. Maybe raise the rent to a more realistic but still favourable level but no need to kick her out is there?

Fwiw I think she should have let you use the garden (too late now!)

ChicRock · 06/07/2017 16:10

YABU.

She's your tenant. By all means increase the rent, end her contract, whatever.

But she's paying a rent that you set, and you have the benefit of a long term reliable tenant, no void periods, she's keeping the house and garden nice, etc.

Renting to unknown tenants is a bloody nightmare. We have long term tenants in one of our properties and we haven't increased the rent in about 6 years as they are a dream. We could be easily making another £200-300 a month but a good tenant is really worth more than that.

As her sister there was no game in asking, but you have no right to be upset at her refusal based on you being her landlord.

thebigbluedustbin · 06/07/2017 16:14

I think it's cheeky. Yes, she is paying less than a regular tenant would be but you set the rent.

And you don't do people favours for the purpose of having favours returned. If I do something for someone I don't expect a return. I might ask for something from them at some point, but if they say no then they say no. I'm certainly not going to say "well I did x for you and because you won't do y for me you're unreasonable because I did x". Not how things work.

Bettercallsaul1 · 06/07/2017 16:15

I would be very disappointed with that response if I were the OP. Of course she has no "right" to ask her and her sister is under no legal obligation to let her use the garden but this is not a normal, market relationship of landlord and tenant! The OP's sister is getting an amazing financial deal because she is the OP's sister - no other reason! As her sister, the OP is asking for a one-off favour in return - the use, for one afternoon, of the sister's heavily-subsidised home. I can't believe she turned her down - and for a family party for her own niece! It beggars belief.

ARumWithAView · 06/07/2017 16:16

I'm going to go against the general tide here and say YABU.

Your garden is 'being done up'. Was it supposed to be finished by your DC's party, or were you just not particularly fussed about having an outdoor event then changed your mind?

Either way, it would've been nice for your sister to offer to host, but that's all. I don't think she's morally obligated to host a party for you, nor step aside so you can host one there. It's your property but her home. She's a rent-paying tenant, not a guest.

She pays rent which covers your mortgage and costs such as building insurance. You're not actually losing real money on the deal: I mean, money is not leaving your bank account as a result of this. You've lost the potential profit of market-value rent, but you've also lost the potential costs: letting agent fees, difficult tenants, damage. You've got a long-term tenant who presumably keeps the place in good condition (even the grass!), and as a single person in a family-sized house she's probably creating less wear and tear than you'd get with other tenants. Your house has presumably continued to rise in value.

Maybe, for plenty of people, none of this seems like much, and they'd rather go for the market rent. But it's still not an act of charity to let your sister live there, and it's pretty insensitive to ask for or expect return 'favours' that involve inviting a bunch of people, even family, to her home. It's one thing to offer to host a sibling's event; it's another to be asked to host with the underlying implication that, well, this is MY house and everyone knows it, even though you've lived there 5 years and paid rent.

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