Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Charlie Gard case

999 replies

LovelyBath77 · 06/07/2017 09:41

AIBU to feel the drama over this poor little boy is not helpful? I read the Pope and Donald Trump were suggesting they help- when several courts have agreed it is in his best interests to let the little boy die with dignity. I feel sorry for him as he may be in pain and it is unfair to add further to false hope for the parents as well. I also feel that many, many people has awful situations where babies die, sadly, for example stillbirths and other cases which are just un-heard and un-noticed and people have to deal with it, so why is there such a huge focus here.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
DailyMailReadersAreThick · 08/07/2017 01:23

Okay, I didn't mean to be horrible but I've asked for my post to be removed. Apologies to UserPlusLongNumber if she's already read it. I'll be more careful how I phrase things.

UserPlusLongNumber · 08/07/2017 01:25

DailyMail- she's partially deaf, partially blind and struggles with mobility, yes.

It's a very emotive thread indeed. Your comment was ignorantly worded. Not all children living not 'normal' lives are suffering. I know paraplegic children with severe brain damage who have good quality of life. Doctors help them, they don't stop treating them.

DailyMailReadersAreThick · 08/07/2017 01:27

Your comment was ignorantly worded.

I'm truly sorry.

Not all children living not 'normal' lives are suffering.

I know, and I'm sure the poster you quoted knows that as well. But with Charlie, it's not just that he is living a 'different' life but that he has no life except, quite probably, a lot of pain that he can't communicate in any way. He can't see at all. He can't hear at all. He can't move at all. He can't even breathe. There is nobody alive with his condition.

Saying it's cruel to prolong his suffering is NOT the same as saying that everybody with an illness should die.

DarthMaiden · 08/07/2017 01:29

@UserPlusLongNumber

In answer to your question I can only say - I don't know.

My heart goes out to you and all the many other posters on this thread who have experiences of children with life limiting illness and those who have a long term prognosis of intensive medical intervention.

Are you cruel to keep your daughter alive? How could anyone on this thread answer that question without more information about her condition or prognosis?

I'm not asking you share that information, but gently wish to point out the diagnosis and prognosis of one child does not result in the same treatment or end result. Flowers

UserPlusLongNumber · 08/07/2017 01:32

Apology accepted.

I see your point. However, I've been there when the "your DD has a 10% chance of survival" line has been trotted out. The only feeling you have is desperation. An element of parental selfishness takes over, I just wanted her to survive. I'm glad I did, her life is wonderful, she's happy, she's not in constant pain. But no, she's not Charlie Gard, her mitochondria are functional. But I can understand their fight. In that moment, you'd do anything.

UserPlusLongNumber · 08/07/2017 01:36

Just to point out, her prognosis was bad. It was much worse than her current presentation ten years on.

Had I listened to doctors and taken their opinions as verbatim, she may well have been allowed to die. I'm so, so glad I didn't. As are they.

SuperBeagle · 08/07/2017 01:55

My dad was removed from life support. We agreed that the quality of life he would have if he survived (and it's extremely unlikely he would've) was horrific. Some things are worse than death. His doctors and the vascular surgeon etc all agreed that if there was a hell, he was living it.

ILikeyourHairyHands · 08/07/2017 02:21

I do think we're seeing a folie à deux here and it's attendant pal, mass hysteria, it needs to stop.

The whole circus has gone beyond anything that could be considered reasonable, I feel for GOSH so much, they are in an impossible position.

I would like to see a fucking responsible adult step in and say, very kindly, 'You need to stop'.

I fear it's gone way beyond that now, and I fear the implications of all of this, for all of us.

DarthMaiden · 08/07/2017 04:20

@SuperBeagle

I'm sorry for you loss

SuperBeagle · 08/07/2017 06:06

Thank you Darth It's been many years and I've accepted it now. No one in the family has ever for a second regretted the decision made, because all you have to do is look around and see all of the beauty in the world, all of the things we can see, do and enjoy, and realise that he wouldn't have been able to see, do, or enjoy any of those things. I really do feel that Charlie's parents are being blinded by their own wants here and are neglecting that their son is the one who will suffer for their choices.

Xeneth88 · 08/07/2017 06:16

Charlie's parents are now at a ridiculous point. Its bordering neglectful. They need to shop this attention seeking medua courting and do what's right for that poor child. I've had to as have many others and its hideous but being a good parent means putting you child first.

Zoflorabore · 08/07/2017 06:16

I had a thought earlier that maybe this comes down to the parents doing everything they can shows how much they love Charlie.
imo the biggest way they could show their love would be to let him go with dignity.

Who knows what the parents are thinking?
I am truly grateful that I have two healthy children so can not imagine their despair and as a parent it's instinct to want to protect your child and do what's right for them.
This is the part that I don't get. Do what's right for them ( them being Charlie )
this is getting out of control now and i worry about what implications this case will have for future cases as it's gone to the highest legal point possible and the parents are still dictating.
Why is this being allowed? The hospital have showed nothing but compassion, respect and dedication and it's as though they have no say in what happens now as the parents have decided they are wrong and have played this out in front of the world media.

CA are nothing but keyboard warriors and drama queens, their protests consist of approx 6 women with a few buggies in tow and lots of home made badly worded posters.
Yes they all claim to love Charlie but really? Come on, would they willingly take over his care if needed? They don't know the poor baby.
It's as though they are feeding off the attention and as is the recurring theme in this case, losing sight of what matters, a sick little boy who has suffered enough.

Xeneth88 · 08/07/2017 06:44

Charlie's Army are the lowest of the low. Unintelligent "huns" passing their days insulting GOSH. They don't possess a brain cell between them, can't decipher the truth and really should get a job. No one should be proud to be part of that. Its disgusting, heaven forbid one of their "kidz" needs help from GOSH, they chirp on that they wouldn't allow it. I bet they'd U turn if it came to it, hypocritical scum "queenz"

Alittlepotofrosie · 08/07/2017 06:50

As someone posted on another thread when the barmy army say the doctors should stop playing god, well they're currently playing god by keeping him alive all these months. If god had his way them charlie would have passed away months ago. Poor little boy.

allowlsthinkalot · 08/07/2017 07:48

stopfuckingshoutingatme, I understood completely what you meant.

You meant " I truly mean that I don't believe he is in pain, that's not just my wishful thinking" and go on to say that he isn't cognisant enough to experience pain. I'm thinking and hoping that myself.

I don't know wtf that response you received was about.

OhUnpretentiousSpud · 08/07/2017 07:58

I made the very silly decision to argue with people on Twitter about the case. I've now been called a eugeencist and Nazi, just for politely saying I agree with GOSH. Sad

GabsAlot · 08/07/2017 08:03

same here oh i got calld disgusting

an i agree a littlpot- theyre missing their own point

LucyTheLocalBike · 08/07/2017 08:15

20 years ago I was in a similar position to Charlie's parents. We waited for results of tests and scans until 17 days after his birth, the neurologist told us his metabolic condition was 'incompatible with life'. We were given the choice of leaving him on the ventilator and watching him fight as each of his organs shut down, or switching the machines off and letting him go quietly, peacefully and with dignity. We chose the latter. That doesn't mean we loved him any less, or wouldn't have done anything to change the situation, but his quality of life, well there was none. It was the hardest decision of my life, but one I stand by to this day, even though some of CA comments have had me in tears many times over this week.

I'm not posting this for sympathy, just to say I've been there and it's horrific but it needs someone now to tell them to enjoy their last few moments with Charlie because there will be no 'winners' in this. They need to allow themselves to start grieving.

PenguinsAreAce · 08/07/2017 08:16

A couple of legal Qs if there are any law experts around:

  1. Why on earth did it take the courts so so long to take this case through all the relevant courts? I know it was faster than usual, but given the whole case was about a child potentially suffering continuously (one of the points on which the whole case turned) why on earth is there no procedure to properly expedite -i.e. List and hear within days at each level.
  1. So, new court hearing. What happens if one party disagrees with the decision (presumably) very early next week?

Does it go... judge refuses permission to appeal (seems likely), so party petitions appeal court directly and they either agree to hear it, or refuse permission? If permission is refused, can they petition the supreme court and then ECHR directly? What I am asking is how quickly can this next legal route be actually ended, because the thought if it spending another month even dragging through 4 tiers of the legal system is horrific for everyone.

FruitCider · 08/07/2017 08:21

I tried to explain that the brain damage was on a cellular level and is irreversible to a friend who shared one of CAs posts yesterday. She said "yeah but my son was born at 24 weeks and they said he wouldn't make it but he did". She doesn't understand Charlie's condition.

Interesting that GOSH have asked for another court hearing to explore the options but have released a statement to the effect that they believe no treatment is the best course of action still.

brexitstolemyfuture · 08/07/2017 08:27

I tried to explain that the brain damage was on a cellular level and is irreversible to a friend who shared one of CAs posts yesterday. She said "yeah but my son was born at 24 weeks and they said he wouldn't make it but he did". She doesn't understand Charlie's condition.

So many people know someone who they wanted to turn off the LS for or were told they wouldn't reach x age. I know 3 personally. But I think maybe doctors were saying the worst case scenario and medicine has improved with the years.

This case is very much heart over head. I've educated myself alot on this and from a supporter I now see how futile it all is :(

Sluttybartfast · 08/07/2017 08:31

1. Why on earth did it take the courts so so long to take this case through all the relevant courts?

Well, the lawyers of both sides need time to prepare a case. The court consulted experts who can't necessarily be available at the drop of a hat. I have no idea if things could have been quicker, but there are reasons why court judgements can't be handed out overnight.

Ellie56 · 08/07/2017 08:31

Presumably going back to court will necessitate up to date medical reports and opinions, which will be made public as before.

mydogisthebest · 08/07/2017 08:37

I truly hope Charlie is not in pain because to think he is is awful. The doctors though say they think he is in pain. He can't show pain in any way because he can't move and he can't cry.

I can just about understand that his parents are in complete denial but for the army to say things like how well he looks, how healthy and chunky, that he can open his eyes etc is literally beyond belief. I look at those pictures and see a swollen, terribly ill shell of a baby. His eyes look, to me, as if they are full of pain.

I think the parents are being cruel now, not intentionally obviously. Just because you can keep someone alive doesn't mean you should when they have zero quality of life.

I just hope that if the High Court rule on Monday that Charlie's life support should be switched off the parents don't carry on the fight and Charlie has to continue suffering

GlitterDustFairy · 08/07/2017 08:38

I find this whole situation truly heartbreaking...there are never going to be any winners. But, recently I have also found myself getting quite angry too.

I've been an ICU nurse for around 10 years (adult, not child) and have been devastated to hear some of the derogatory comments I have been reading about GOSH and the team caring for Charlie (not on here may I add). We, as a multi-disciplinary team (nurses, doctors, physio's, dietitians etc) are not the heartless people some are making us out to be. End of life decisions and the withdrawal of treatment are not something we decide about on a whim....with an adult, let alone a baby. This can often take days or weeks. We assess the situation daily if not more (the nature of ICU can mean things can change quickly). Families are ALWAYS involved and we will not do anything in terms of removing support without consent. Although, not to this extreme, I have been involved with many families who refuse to accept that their relative is not going to survive.

I only know what everyone else knows about the specifics of Charlie Gard but I can shed a bit of light about the ICU aspect.

Charlie is incredibly brain damaged, this is irriversable, brain tissue does not recover. However, there are different variations of damage and different part of the brain affect different bodily functions. So, a person may be able to breath without a ventilator but not cough for example. This would result in long term tracheostomy and regular suctioning to try and prevent chest infections. Being brain damaged is not the same as being brain stem dead. There are 6 tests undertaken for brain stem death testing, all of which there must be no response to, if there is any response the patient is not brain stem dead. However, the exclusion of brain stem death does not exclude catastrophic brain damage.

Being on long term ventilation is not good for anyone. When we decide to go down the route of intubation and ventilation the aim is to get a patient of it as quickly as possible. There are risks of infection, it affect the heart and kidneys. To tolerate the tube a patient will need to be kept sedated to counteract the gag reflex. There is muscle wastage, like anything....if it's not being used it will become weak; lungs are no different. Artificially inflating and deflating lungs is not the same or as effective as spontaneous ventilation.

A PP asked how long can a person be kept alive for artificially. It's difficult to say, in theory a long time with the use of medication and machines. We can support lungs, kidneys, heart and livers but there is a bit of a cascade effect; once one is being supported due to failure...others will follow. There does become a point where no matter what we put into the body to support it, a person still dies. Blood chemistry can alter to a point where it is incompatible with life, medication used to support the blood pressure can only be increased to a point where it stops being therapeutic and becomes toxic. Make no mistake....this is a horrible way to die, there is absolutely no dignity.

Many have asked why can't Charlie go home. My guess would be, legalities aside that he is too sick to survive the journey. Some patients on ICU are so incredibly sick they can not even be moved up the bed. Transferring a critically ill patient is risky. It would be awful for Charlie to die in the back of an ambulance.

Withdrawal of care in hospital would mean Charlie is safe. The team would do everything they can to make it as peaceful and dignified as possible. ICU is the one place you will have 1 nurse looking after you throughout. They can dress him in his favourite pyjamas, play music etc.

As I said, I don't know any more about Charlie than what the general press has released but I just want to try and shed a bit of light on the workings of an ICU. The staff at GOSH are not monsters, they will be acting in Charlie's best interest and I bet the emotional toll on them is awful.