to not know how to explain transgender child in DD's class

[Peaches44]

I'm sorry if this comes across offensive but I am incredibly naive when it comes to these kinds of issues.

DD has a boy in her class, they are in reception year. At the start of the year she asked if the DC was a boy or girl and I could only answer as being not sure. The mother is very quiet so I hadn't heard her refer to the child as a he or she. The name is more 'boy' but could possibly be a girls also, the child wears a mixture of girls and boys uniforms and on non-school uniform days they wear girls clothes.

DD now knows he is a boy, but he is apparently allowed in the girls toilets and DD at 4 doesn't understand why, she also said a few other boys see this boy able to go in the girls and the boys follow.

She has asked a few times why he does tis etc. and I don't know the right answer, they are likely to be in the same school year for the whole of primary so they are questions I need to answer but I don't know how.

Would the mother be offended if I talked with her about it??

Every time a thread relating to transgender issues comes up on MN I am horrified and embarrassed at how transphobic people are.

Whilst I agree that at 4 things a child is saying will probably not be the same their whole life, I very much doubt they are making any permanent changes now so there is no reason why they can't change later, once they become more aware of their own identity.

But that wasn't even what the OP was asking about, so OP I suggest you ignore the ignorant and unnecessary posts here, as there is some good advice, or take your question to a less offensive forum

Bonkers

When I was about four (and a boy) I begged my mom to paint my nails because my older sister had hers painted (she painted my thumbnail) and wanted to wear high heels like she did so I was allowed to sometimes around the house. I do often wonder whether if I was born this day and age and my parents pushed it and forcefully encouraged me whether I would have grown up transgender and be living like a woman by now. Not saying that's what's happening here but at four kids want to be anything and everything. My niece at four or five said when she grew up she wanted to be a cat. I didn't start giving her bowls of milk and attaching a collar around her neck with a bell on it.

My daughter from about three decided she wanted short hair and only wore "boys'" clothes. For a few months she called herself "Anakin". Once or twice she tearfully asked why she hadn't been born a boy. I just let her get on with being herself.

Other children got confused sometimes about why she had a girl's name but looked like a boy (one child she hadn't met before even cried at a party, he was so discombobulated), but mostly everyone just accepted her for who she was (However she didn't go to the toilet at school unless with a friend because she was worried that someone would tell her that she was in the wrong one.)

When she got near to the beginning of year 6, she decided that she wanted to be a bit more girly, so she grew her hair and started choosing more clothes from the "girls'" section. If nothing else, she was fed up of always having to correct people who misgendered her. If she had continued as she was, that would have been fine. She didn't, and doesn't, need a label.

What I think we should learn from this is we should stop trying to squash children (everyone!) into rigid gender boxes, whether that's stereotypical boy or girl or transgender child. They will find their own way if we let them.

I would definitely speak to the mother. Clear up any assumptions or preconceptions.

It could be the parents want the child to grow up free from all the gender stereotypes and expectations of girls and boys, or the child has actually shown indication they are aren't identifying with their birth gender so want them to grow up non-binary/ gender fluid/ gender neutral until they are able to make a decision when they are older. At 4 I would doubt they are actually transgender.

Chat to the parents. Keep it friendly. They may well be terrified at what the other parents are gossiping behind their backs which is why they're quiet. But it's what works for them. Start with "Hi I'm Peaches44, my child is in your childs class. I thought I'd say hello." Explain what your child has told you and you wanted to be able support them understand in the best way possible. Would it be ok for them to explain as much as they were happy to discuss and so can make sure you're not saying the wrong thing.

I have a close friend who is non-binary trans. They don't identify as male or female. They are perfectly aware what gender they were born as/ are. But that's not how they FEEL. They don't get 'girl' stuff. But neither fit in with 'bloke' stuff. They don't want to swap genders. They just don't want to be either. But they are a grown up so a bit different as they are old enough to have decided for themselves that's what they feel. I can completely understand if the parents don't want to 'pressurise' and shoehorn their child into a blue 'boy' or pink 'girl' mould. But they are a small child, maybe there's more to it.

Every time a thread relating to transgender issues comes up on MN I am horrified and embarrassed at how transphobic people are

Everytime people point out that labelling toddlers transgender is idiotic, some plank like you starts shrieking about us all being transphobic.

Hog on.

They aren't unisex toilets, the school is quite small and only have two sets either end of the school, two male and two female. It doesn't actually matter what toilet he is using as they are only young but DD is at an age where everything is very literal regarding the 'rules' and doesn't understand why a boy is allowed to the girls.

I am fairly sure he is a boy, the name would be unusual given to a girl. He has long hair but very masculine face. I may add the mother as a friend to social media and see if I can work it out a bit before I put my foot in it with her.

True.. she did want to be a dolphin at 4...

But despite telling her she can dress how the fuck she likes have her hair however she wants and still be a girl, that girls aren't defined by looks or hobbies or behaviour or whether all their friends are boys. She tells me she is a boy.

I haye this attitude that parents have any fucking influence...i think the biggest influence is society's constant desire to classify things as boys and girls. Confuses children that start to think if i like this i must be this gender... i genuinely feel that if people were more free to like whatever they like without it being linked to gender it wouldn't be such an issue.

How linked is the rise of gender confusion to the influx of pink toys for girls and vlue tpys for boys.

Op its just a child. How they dress/cut their hair etc doesn't matter just teach your dd that steriotypes suck.

yaela123 what are you seeing as transphobic?

Whilst we're at it, what are the similarities between you and someone transing to your sex that mean you fall under the same umbrella?

yaela123 I would report any transphobic posts and get them deleted.

"It sounds a bit like the child is gender fluid". A child of 4 can't be "gender fluid" when they barely understand the differences between the sexes, and haven't got any kind of a grasp of the complexities of gender constructs and sex-based stereotypes. What they are is an individual with their own personality, that's all. What clothes they wear and what they like to do is neither here nor there at aged 4.

I have a close friend who is non-binary trans

No you don't. The term makes no sense; transgender literally means someone who wants to swap gender, they feel they are the wrong one. If you are "non-binary" and don't feel male or female, you cannot be transgender.

lady you are right there. Don't do labels and don't give a societal heirachy to the behaviour and it is no longer an issue. It is what it is.

Transgenderism is not medical fact because gender is not medical fact. Sex is medical fact, gender is socially created.
Most trans people accept and acknowledge this fact and do not profess to be the opposite sex because being trans doesn't make them too thick to understand biology. Self proclaimed "trans allies" insisting that it's transphobic to point this out are actually not allies at all. They make things much harder for trans people.

My child is trans and has just started secondary, there have been lots of questions from interested kids, most of which are generally friendly and are taken as such. Genuine interest in something out of the ordinary is pretty normal and we would much rather answer questions than have to deal with kids taking the piss because they don't understand.

My DC uses the toilet appropriate for their sex and has no desire to appropriate the mens loo. Wonder why that is

FtM trans people don't usually get the perks of MtF due to being born with lady bits but then they don't usually feel entitled to them either for the same reason.

boney I clearly didn't mean demanding access to personal details let alone confidential data. But if the child's sex is female I bet 99.999% of teachers would have an obvious 'wtf' face if you started asking them about transgender 4yr olds.

Stupid does taking every word literally, one of my favourites.

And no, there is no law saying gender stereotypes have to be enforced on 4yr olds. Or that males must be legally allowed in female only spaces. Other schools manage without dismissing females.

sofa I don't know but not at reception age. They might well be but I think before mid teens there is just as much chance they are confused, so imo reinforcing their idea they definitely are transgender at 4 (when they might just be a boy who prefers stereotypical female things or vice versa) isn't the best way to help them find out. My objection isn't genuine transgender people, it's the reinforcement of gender stereotypes and the loss of female rights that go hand in hand with the transgender movement

Can't you just say that the teacher is in charge and if the teacher says the child can use the toilet then that's ok?

The family shouldn't have to justify their gender decision tree to you so that your reception age child feels that their child is justified in taking a pee in the girls toilet!

Lazyafternoon
I have a close friend who is non-binary trans. They don't identify as male or female. They are perfectly aware what gender they were born as/ are. But that's not how they FEEL. They don't get 'girl' stuff. But neither fit in with 'bloke' stuff.

Non binary trans doesn't even make sense. You know, deep down, that it doesn't. What you are describing is personality & people have been doing their own thing for years. People are born as a sex and society puts gender roles on them. Why can't people like your mate just crack on with being their own personality within their sex? Other peoples don't really care that much. (although it would further the gender critical cause of no end, in terms of what's seen as the norm). Oh, except for the male violence thing, but funnily enough getting all Tumblr on their ass doesn't offer any protection.

At 24 they can have 'issues' at 14 they can think they have issues... at 4 they just have a stupid parent.

This. with bloody bells on. Except I'd say it's more than stupid, it's abusive. I'd be disappointed if my DCs school pandered to this.

Sex is medical fact, gender is socially created

This one sentance sums up my entire feelings

Good post who's

I completely get they are just children and don't have to fit into a mould of pink or blue. The school uniform can be very gender neutral and boys and girls can wear trousers/shorts and the same polo and jumper. This little boy seems to completely switch from one to the other regularly, some days he will dress as a boy and another he will wear a skirt, hair ties, pink shoes etc. so I find the situation a bit confusing, he doesn't have an older sibling who might be passing down these items so they have presumably been bought for him.

OP, are you friendly with other parents at school? Enough so that, if you were to just approach this mum for a chat, it wouldn't look obvious and weird? If so, why not just strike up a conversation? "Hi... oh, you're xxx's mum, right?... blah blah weather, blah blah school holidays". You may find that she'll inadvertently clarify something for you in conversation, or that the subject comes up naturally. If not, and you still want answers, speak to the school.

People should not be forcing children into anything, of course. But no-one is saying that that has happened here. Those throwing around words like "stupid" and "ridiculous" and talking about rabbit hutches and children identifying as teachers would do well to remember that they know about 23% of the facts of the case and wind their necks in a little.

Good post AssassinatedBeauty.

This little boy seems to completely switch from one to the other regularly, some days he will dress as a boy and another he will wear a skirt, hair ties, pink shoes etc

But its you that have decided that skirts hairs and pink shoes are for girls...therefore affirming gender sterio types and continuning the cycle.

Sofa I don't know how old your DC is but give it time, my DC came out as gay at 10 and declared themselves trans at 11. We've been utterly accepting without reservation but have also managed to resist the juggernaut of "professionals" who seem keen to begin transition without delay (including offering hormone blockers to my 11 year old).

We are now in a position where DC knows that if they decide to move forward we will be supportive and knowing this seems to have abated the rush, so we've bought precious time in which some degree of consideration towards just being happy as a masculine lesbian female might be ok...

It's so crucial that these kids have the time and space to mature and learn who they actually are before they decide it's not good enough. At 4 it's not even a fraction of a possibility! My DC is starting to like themselves a bit as they head towards their teens, I could have never seen this happening just a year ago. Time is everything!

I have a close friend who is non-binary trans. They don't identify as male or female. They are perfectly aware what gender they were born as/ are. But that's not how they FEEL. They don't get 'girl' stuff. But neither fit in with 'bloke' stuff.

That doesn't mean they are 'non-binary trans' FFS - it just means they are a man/woman. Nothing more, nothing less.