to not know how to explain transgender child in DD's class

[Peaches44]

I'm sorry if this comes across offensive but I am incredibly naive when it comes to these kinds of issues.

DD has a boy in her class, they are in reception year. At the start of the year she asked if the DC was a boy or girl and I could only answer as being not sure. The mother is very quiet so I hadn't heard her refer to the child as a he or she. The name is more 'boy' but could possibly be a girls also, the child wears a mixture of girls and boys uniforms and on non-school uniform days they wear girls clothes.

DD now knows he is a boy, but he is apparently allowed in the girls toilets and DD at 4 doesn't understand why, she also said a few other boys see this boy able to go in the girls and the boys follow.

She has asked a few times why he does tis etc. and I don't know the right answer, they are likely to be in the same school year for the whole of primary so they are questions I need to answer but I don't know how.

Would the mother be offended if I talked with her about it??

Im not sure a 4 year old needs the responsibility of speaking to the teacher about why boys are using the girls toilets, especially as the teacher will probably just dismiss the girl with a wave of the hand.

IMO the Op as the parent needs to tackle this and just check with the school if they are aware that boys are using the girls toilets and if they are aware what are they doing to ensure that the girls privacy is being protected, or ask when the gender neutral toilet is being installed.

Fl0ellafunbags

I'm genuinely sorry if your child and you are having a hard time. It's got to be tough.

This isn't ever about individuals.

TRAs have turned gender dysphoria into a belief system, that relies on the complicity of others.

Something which, although they might crave, they cannot secure.

It doesn't help children who are genuinely suffering.

Im not sure a 4 year old needs the responsibility of speaking to the teacher about why boys are using the girls toilets, especially as the teacher will probably just dismiss the girl with a wave of the hand.

Oh I don't know let's ask your teacher -

You go along with child to teacher and either ask question for them or stand with while they ask.

I've done if for anything that's bothering my child -and as they've got older they tend to ask questions themsleves and then come to me as back up if they get dimissed.

Not sure why that such a massive deal TBH.

We were at the school summer fair today. DS2's friend announced that he wasn't allowed spray in hair colour because it was for girls. I pointed out all the boys who'd had it done. It made me a bit sad. 😢

Such horrible attitudes on here. This is absolutely about individuals and the most vulnerable ones. It's should be of no consequence to anyone else what gender any person lives their life as.

Criminals and abusive people do not equal trans people. You know that right?

Just tell your child that this girl was born a boy but is living life as a girl. So therefore uses the girls toilets. You don't know if the child will always feel like this but it's ok either way and is their choice. Teach your child to not judge or see themselves as better or more 'right' than this child. Don't start hinting or outright teaching her that her rights are infringed as she might be assaulted because of the crimes of bad men.

This is absolutely about individuals and the most vulnerable ones

You mean it is about "vulnerable" boys. You happily throw vulnerable girls under the bus of transagenda.

Criminals and abusive people do not equal trans people. You know that right?

I used to believe that there were some nice and harmless trans people. I am incraesingly losing that belief.

Read this to educate yourself: terfisaslur.com/

That is what trans say about women.

There is a very easy way of differentiating between nice and harmless males who suffer from sex dysphoria and just want to feel better by having surgery, and dangerous criminals: Nice and harmless ones don't want to INVADE SPACES THAT ARE SEX SEGREGATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROTECTING WOMEN FROM MALE VIOLENCE.

Easy as that.

You don't support nice and harmless trans with your attitude, you only support creeps who view women as subhuman and have no consideration for our feelings or safety.

If it were really of no consequence to anyone else I would agree, Youre. But the OP's DD is already finding that girls only space is being encroached on (both by the trans girl in her class, but also the other boys who feel emboldened to go into the girls toilets as well.)

If the 4yo is vulnerable through dint of his age, I would suggest that this is an argument against following the "he is really a girl inside" approach that allows him to use the girls' facilities. If he is vulnerable otherwise, such as SN, then even more so it is inappropriate to encourage him down this route.

Surely you can't really think that it is truly helpful to a small boy to tell him that if he feels like a girl then he is one?

Datun

Thank you for that. I am utterly dismayed at how TRAs are selling out both the trans community and women. It's actually causing huge rifts within the LGBT movement, which benefits no one. And, of course, the awful thing is that it builds resentment towards trans people. They do not represent my daughter.

Personally I feel that four is far too young for any notion of gender dysphoria. That's about the age at which I was planning to marry the dog!

@YoureNotASausage

Which specific posts do you disagree with You're? This seems like quite a calm, measured, discusssion? Have i missed something?

That 4 yr old child doesn't say anything about women Vestal. But keep treating trans people like you're doing and you'll get plenty of angry and damaged trans adults.

Vulnerable trans girls and boys. It's not hard to see who is the child needing protection in this particular story. Unless someone has taught the OPs dd already to fear a sexual assault from her 4 yr old classmate or that the tinkle of her pee is an embarrassment to be hidden from all males.

I wouldn't have a clue what to say!

But keep treating trans people like you're doing and you'll get plenty of angry and damaged trans adults.

Yes, yes, women are to blame for male violence. yawn

Where have I heard that before?

You throw girls under the bus and you know it. You open the door to have males, ADULT MALES in changing rooms, showers, women's shelters, yes, even women's prison cells from where there is no escape.

You happily throw girls and women under the bus by claiming that toilets are about gender not sex, and I will not let you get away with denying it to yourself.

This: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2876810-Danielle-Muscatos-tweet-on-international-womens-day#prettyPhoto

Is what you advocate for.

And this: www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article134353039.html

This is what you want to do to girls and women. Do it if you absolutely must, but do not be so fucking cheeky to deny it.

This is the logical consequence of pretending that males can be female.

Condone males in female spaces if you want, but at least admit what you are doing.

Brilliantly put vestal

your why is it the reverse logic never ever applies? If it doesn't matter where a 4yr old wees then surely it shouldn't be an issue to wee in the toilets of the correct sex. But oh no silly me I forgot, it's not about the 4yr olds, it's about forcing the girls to accept it so they don't question it when they reach puberty, and adulthood and a biological male invades their space and removes their rights.

Fl0ellafunbags

I completely agree that the TRAs are selling out both women and people with genuine dysphoria.

It makes it incredibly difficult. It polarises opinion.

People with trans children, friends or relatives, who know they are not represented by the TRAs get defensive and distressed. Quite understandably.

I profoundly disagree with the way the ideology is being pushed. It is attracting the worst possible kinds of people.

The threats of violence, the doxxing, the no platforming, etc infuriate me. Along with the ludicrous claims that their anatomy is female and therefore they should be centred in feminism, and at the same time, being triggered by anything to do with women, so we need to shut up. And saying lesbians are transphobic for not sleeping with them.

It seems as far away from a distressed child with gender dysphoria as anything could get.

I fervently wish we could go back 15 years, have this condition treated, and leave the ideology out of it.

Making it politicised is forcing people to pick a side.

Because of the threat to women from the misogynistic cohort, Fl0ella, I have picked a side.

It doesn't, and never will, mean that I do not have sympathy for genuine trans. And I have always wished that a distinction could be made, both legally and socially.

I've said before on these threads that, in the same way that we say NAMALT (not all men are like that) about predators, it goes without saying that I feel the same way about people suffering from gender dysphoria who have no wish to erode women's rights.

I hope that eventually more activists, like Miranda Yardley, will make a concerted effort to provide a distinction.

In the meantime, I have to stay true to my conviction and come down hard on dismantling the ideology.

Because as it stands, it is having far too great effect on children and youngsters everywhere.

again. I hope you find peace and I'm sorry that although we both want the same thing, happy, healthy children, we may, for now, have to go about it in slightly different ways.

But oh no silly me I forgot, it's not about the 4yr olds, it's about forcing the girls to accept it so they don't question it when they reach puberty, and adulthood and a biological male invades their space and removes their rights.

Brilliantly put and much more concise than my rant. That's exactly it.

And there'll be a heavy dose of brainwashing and gaslighting for everyone involved if they explain to the boys that this one special boy gets to use the girls' toilet because he has genderfeelz, which they can neither see, nor hear, nor otherwise perceive, but are required to believe in and have to pretend to see. Like the Emperor's New Clothes, only that no one agrees with the child who points out that the Emperor is naked; the child is told to not be so rude.

I hope that eventually more activists, like Miranda Yardley, will make a concerted effort to provide a distinction.

Miranda Yardley has gone on hiatus:

mirandayardley.com/en/hiatus/

And had the decency to acknowledge that she can move away from it because she is male.

(I use female pronouns out of courtesy, not because I am in any way confused about Miranda's biological sex.)

Yeah, vestal, I read her departing blog. It's a great loss as far as I'm concerned.

Her partner Helen was on here a year or so back. She was delightful. I completely forgot she wasn't a woman. It gave me a small taste of how things could be.

As Helen said about TRAs, 'if you want women to think you're not violent, abusive men, stop acting like it'.

Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed.

The issue with the toilets isn't a 4 yo boy and 4yo girl sharing as yes obviously they are still young. But its what it represents and even at her age DD obviously feels uncomfortable, and as nothing has been explained to the children so the boys think it is okay to go in the girls. The school goes up to aged 11 so if this isn't nipped in the bud it will cause later problems.

Yes there is a 'chance' he is intersex but I think its unlikely and more likely that he likes to dress as a girl/identifies as a girl and the school don't really know how to deal with it. Yes he may be vulnerable and does need protecting but so does my DD and the other children. Their feelings matter too, I think that gets forgotten when we have to be so politically correct.

I am not worried about explaining to DD that he may identify as a girl etc. but without knowing the right thing to say I think it is confusing to explain this to a four year old then take it all back if he decides later on he wants to return to a 'boy'.

Telling her that he is allowed "because the teacher says so" to me isn't good enough, its not fair to undermine the rules and her beliefs without an explanation.

Their feelings matter too, I think that gets forgotten when we have to be so politically correct.

Amen to that

Their feelings matter too

Absolutely. And with very good reason, since violence and sexual abuse against girls and women is appallingly widespread and exhaustively well documented. It's all very well for us to say 'they're only four!'. But those four-year-olds will grow into older girls, teenagers and women who - statistics show - will need their boundaries to be rock solid throughout life, not blurred.

In the context of privacy and intimate spaces it's always okay for girls to say 'no boys allowed here' IMO. Even at age four, even though many four year olds won't care. Even if they can't articulate why, even if we don't really agree with their reasoning. Sadly, even if it distresses a male child who feels more at home in the girls' toilets. Girls need to be allowed to say 'no' and to have their 'no' accepted without further comment.

It's the beginnings of teaching consent and good, necessary boundaries.

Also, all boys need to experience girls/women saying 'no, not here' and be taught to deal with it. That starts early.

Just my opinion of course. I can still remember hating the unisex toilet at nursery school and would have felt uncomfortable in your DD's situation OP.

It's presenting as a different gender, not different sex. Gender is just how you express yourself.

Presenting as a different gender doesn't mean you change sex. It just doesn't.

The only reason to take that line is to validate the person's gender expression. Which again, implies it's not just expression, but an actual change of sex.

It isn't.

What did the teacher say when you asked what the school line was OP?

Telling her that he is allowed "because the teacher says so" to me isn't good enough, its not fair to undermine the rules and her beliefs without an explanation

Well, but that's what is happening. Explain that he is "allowed", i. e. the teacher is not on her side here, because the teacher says so, that you do not agree with breaking the rules that way, and that you will complain about it. Then complain to the school. Apparently the intersex option is off the table, now.

If they also give her shit about this boy being a girl (which they probably do), you unfortunately won't get around explaining that the world has gone crazy and that while a boy might "identify" as having female sexual organs (because that is what makes a girl a girl), he doesn not really have them.

This is a lot for a little child to cope with, but you can't change it.

(And who the fuck got the idea to trans that little boy? They aren't doing him any favours! I mean, it probably is the parents, but as crazy as the world have gone, it could also be a perfectly normal gender non-conforming boy and the school falling over themselves to be "politically correct" by missexing him.)

My dcs had unisex toilets up until the age of 7 anyway.

Just strike up a conversation with the mother along the lines of 'and what's your little one called? I'm sorry, I'm jot quite clear on whether you have a little boy or a little girl? And how are they finding reception?'

And then as you get to know her you can drop in little guns like 'I could not get dd out of her spiderman costume for love nor money yesterday. She kept trying to climb the walls! Girls, eh?' and just try to consistently challenge her dogmatic view of gender if that's what she has.

gems

I know this is a primary not a secondary, but the school may also be being influenced by the Crown Prosecution Service schools pack, which is very clear that gender identity validation & male violence are exclusively the responsibilities (& the problem) of girls & women.