To gently tell my friend why her son is unpopular

[Whoareyouu]

NC because this is potentially outing.

Best friend of 20 years has 2 boys, 9 and 11. Eldest one is shy and suffers from anxiety. But once he feels comfortable with his surroundings he is an absolute delightful child, thoughtful and interesting, and he is sensitive and socially aware despite his shyness.

The younger one though is spoilt and bratty. Throws tantrums if he doesn't get his own way, is very whiny and has zero manners.

I love my friend dearly and wouldn't ever wish to hurt her. But she seems completely blind to her younger child's behaviour.

He is bright and knows it. Will often say things like "I'm such a clever boy!" if he gets something right. And gloats when another child gets an answer wrong.

My friend gets upset that he is unpopular and doesn't understand why. She reasons that people are jealous and that it is a side effect of being gifted.

I have bitten my tongue on so many occasions. But it is getting worse and now he is getting bullied for being a show off know all.

Obviously bullying is wrong and my friend is absolutely right to tackle it with the school. But AIBU to gently say something to her or should I keep my mouth shut to avoid upsetting her?

I dislike my cousins daughter, she's rude, bad mannered and obnoxious. But I would never tell her that, it would create more problems when it would solve if I attempted to give behaviour management advice as I'm a nanny.

I was a bit like that as a kid. I grew out of it. Give him time, and for goodness sake, don't talk to his mum about it!

9 yo kids are often not very good judges of character

On the contrary, I find 9 year olds excellent judges of character and unlike adults they haven't yet lost the ability to say "NO" to an unpleasant child. Child gloats and belittles you- no longer friends, simple as. Many AIBU threads wouldn't exist if we as adults were all able and gutsy enough to do that.

They don't want to be friends with a child who makes them feel shit. Good for them.

Agree paxillsn by 9 mine were excellent judges of character.

Really? The ones at ds' primary school don't seem to be very good judges of character, going by who the popular kids are. In 20 years of teaching and dealing with gazillions of problems caused friendship issues, I can assure you that many children considerably older than 9 are also pretty poor judges of character when it comes to choosing friends. Many want to hang out with very dominant characters who specialise in making others feel like shit, unfortunately.

Our school does crack down on bullying so the dominant ones out to make others feel shit are stopped from doing so. But yes, by and large the ones who get few invites have been quite unpleasant to others.

And the children in the OP cottoned on, too. He belittles others for their mistake, so is unpopular. So these children are good character judges, too.

Funny as I always see kids generally as very good judges of character!

They might choose to hang out with kids you don't especially like but that doesn't mean they don't see their faults they might like those faults.

Kids know who the bullies are and my 4 netsrdn them have been at 6 different schools all who had a good way to deal with bullies.

Of your kid isn't asked to any parties it usually means they are unpopular and there's a reason for it. It might be unfair as in SN but there's a reason for it and by 9 kids know their own minds.

See the op is telling us the gloate is left out here.

Kids just don't feel the need to ask people they dislike to their parties.

Good schools deal with dominant characters who dominate to cause trouble.

I'd stay out of it, personally.

He may be autistic. The descriptions of both sons sound like they could both be on the spectrum with one being the anxious quiet sort and the other one being more impulsive and less thoughtful and observant.

What you call belittling and gloating the child may simply see as speaking the truth and he doesn't understand that it might upset others.

The whining and bratty behaviour can also be one way neurotypical people percieve behaviour typical of a stressed overwhelmed person with poor social skills.

Unfortunately not understanding social cues and being slow to develop social skills cam go hand in hand with being intellectually gifted and also a tendency to bore people with their special interests.

No two autistic people are exactly the same so it is perfectly possible for two children to be on the spectrum and one be quiet, shy and very socially appropriate (I was like that as a child I spent all my time watching and being careful not to get it wrong) and another be a bit of a bull in a china shop - I have relatives like that.

My (much) younger DBro was very like this.

Large age gap between us- he's only a couple of years older than DS.

Unfortunately his boastful nature was largely indulged and encouraged by his parents (my Dad, different Mum), who placed a lot of ambition on him and his intelligence, since I was classed as 'a waste' by Ddad for not going straight to Uni after college.
So academic achievements were praised vastly, and he was brought up to equate your level of intelligence with your worth as a person.

Even now, one of the first questions he asks people is what their achievements are, do they have a Degree? etc...he isn't interested in their answer particularly, I think he just wants a reason to tell people that he has. It's quite sad really, and I blame this attitude on his parents.

But if someone tried to tell Ddad and DSM 15 years ago why DB was being called a Smart Arse and a Know All at school, and he really was, it would have cost them the friendship I think.
Ddad told DB to see these insults as a positive thing; that they were all jealous of his intelligence

I'd keep quiet OP. His parents will know his nature, and they will see and hear exactly what you do, except they probably have an entirely different perception of it.
I don't think anybody would welcome an outsider's opinion on why their beloved child is not liked by their peers.

Don't do it OP, she will immediately jump to the defence of her child and it will not end well.

I have a similar issue with a friend, although the child is not unpopular, but is rude, disrespectful, bad mannered, spoilt and generally unpleasant to be around. However this child is the apple of their mothers eye and there can be no bad words said because the mother is under the illusion that her child is the most beautiful, kind, sweet etc in the world.

9 year olds gloat! That seems to be their main form of communication sometimes, it's all who has the best computer game, who has the best this, who is better at that.

The popular 9 year olds do it, so that is not why this 9 year old is being left out by his peers IMO

9 year olds are still very much finding their feet socially.

OP do you have kids? if so are they younger?
You don't sound like you've had a 9 year old yourself.

Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread so this may have already been mentioned but could it be that deep down she knows? and is 'putting brave face on things/fronting it out.

Speaking as a Mum to a child who struggles socially massively - some her own doing and some not so much - I know, beleive me I know and it's really bloody hard as a parent.

I need my friends to support me,to get me and let me have a little cry when things are tough. My friends are mainly very good at pointing things out on a playdate etc in a way that doesn't feel like they are getting at my DD if that makes sense?

Please don't point out this boys negative character traits, don't tell he why you think he is so unpopular, it will hurt her so much.

My friends little one is similar. He is 5 years older than my boy and probably on the same level. He's mollycoddled, spoiled, isn't streetwise at all, and nothing like any child I have ever encountered of that age. He is still obsessed with poo and takes a teddy in to school. He'll be in secondary school in a year. My DS just looks at him like he's insane, or (when he asks ridiculous maths or spelling questions to test my DS - then gets spiteful when DS is correct) says, "you're 5 years older than me, act like it". Harsh but it does stop him. He doesn't share very well and is very competitive.

You'll never wake the mum up to this and it would ruin your friendship to try.

Oh gosh no,don't say a word!!

You don't sound like you've had a 9 year old yourself.

She may or may not. I have DC aged 9 and older. I find them good character judges and they do not chose their friends by prowess in a computer game. I reckon quite a few of the other posters who said the same do, too.

My friend has a daughter like this. My friend is not English, and she and I are close, and I'm pretty certain her daughter has Aspergers. Her husband will not permit her to get her assessed and because she holds it together at school, the school won't assess her either.

She is very, very bright.

He social skills are very poor and she doesn't have friends. She tends to show off and be bossy and throw a strop when she doesn't get her own way.
I have chatted to her mum a lot about the cultural differences between her culture (which I know well) and English culture, and have been abel to use those as ways of helping her help her daughter. We have talked about, for example, the idea of openly celebrating your success v. being modest (eg the CEO of tescos at a party might just say he works for tescos, whereas in anohter culture he would introduce himself as the CEO)
She has then asked me questions about her dd - so is that one reason why the other kids don't like dd? Yes, she is a show off. (said nicer than that) and she has gone away and tried to help her dd negotiate some of that. I have been able to give her concrete examples to share with her dd.
eg. in french lesson, her dd always knows the answer, sticks her hand up, does that annoying thing where they squeal to get noticed and then in the end blurts out the right answer before the teacher has asked anyone. Class then gives her death stares. Explaining to her that the teacher's aim is not to hear the right answer, after all the teacher knows it already! It is to try and get as many people as possible to get there as well, so she gives time, she adds a clue in she reminds them of something similar they did last week, until most of the class have worked it out for themselves. Then she gets someone to say it. Also, 30 children, each person gets to answer one thing, that means the teacher must ask 30 more questions before she will ask you again.
This was a revelation to daughter and mum, as it is not how their education system works.

her dd is getting much better, she is off to secondary in sept, and I hope she can take what she has learnt, but none of it comes easily to her. It doesn't help that Mum and Dad constantly praise her, and rarely tell her to pipe down and behave.

So, given a context you can say something, but I have a long relationship with this friend, and she came to me for advie when she was at her wits end with her dd

Hi OP. Going to go against the grain and say 'tell her', but only if you're prepared for her to bite your head off.

But you'd be doing the kid a favour. I know this, because I WAS that egregious, superior kid - mostly because I was praised by my parents but never told how to be modest. It made me really unpopular. It took a week away with a very forthright youth group when I was eleven for me to grow some self awareness. It probably saved me many years of bullying.

Tinsel twins wtf! I have a nine yo dd and a fifteen yo dd and neither of them gloat or show off to their friends!! Not totally normal behaviour AT ALL.
My 9yo is a very talented dancer and wins lots of competitions. She can Not Be persuaded to take any trophies in to school for their "achievement assemblies" (take in a swimming badge, brownie badge etc) in case people think she is a show off!

I agree, TrinityTaylor. 4 year olds brag. But they don't all gloat even at 4, because many have discovered some kindness by then. 9 year olds do not routinely brag or gloat. Which is why this child sticks out so much and is unpopular.

It's natural at that age to try to gauge yourself against your peers. It's that age where being different isn't yet cool. Groups of 9 year olds do compare themselves, it's a natural part of finding their feet, first they conform to the group, then they later in teens do the opposite and then they all think they're unique and different and "individual" LOL.

At 9 though it is normal to compare in order to see if you conform

Compare definitely. Put others down routinely, absolutely not

"when posters use the word " gently" like this, it means they feel superior and are expecting some sort of endorsement from other posters that they are right to be judgmental and patronising."

Nailed it. Also applies to when posters say "in the nicest possible way..." before commencing to put the boot in.