To gently tell my friend why her son is unpopular

[Whoareyouu]

NC because this is potentially outing.

Best friend of 20 years has 2 boys, 9 and 11. Eldest one is shy and suffers from anxiety. But once he feels comfortable with his surroundings he is an absolute delightful child, thoughtful and interesting, and he is sensitive and socially aware despite his shyness.

The younger one though is spoilt and bratty. Throws tantrums if he doesn't get his own way, is very whiny and has zero manners.

I love my friend dearly and wouldn't ever wish to hurt her. But she seems completely blind to her younger child's behaviour.

He is bright and knows it. Will often say things like "I'm such a clever boy!" if he gets something right. And gloats when another child gets an answer wrong.

My friend gets upset that he is unpopular and doesn't understand why. She reasons that people are jealous and that it is a side effect of being gifted.

I have bitten my tongue on so many occasions. But it is getting worse and now he is getting bullied for being a show off know all.

Obviously bullying is wrong and my friend is absolutely right to tackle it with the school. But AIBU to gently say something to her or should I keep my mouth shut to avoid upsetting her?

That's a scary attitude you have there. A majority think something is odd so it's Carte Blanche for them to treat a person badly- mob rule heh? Wasn't there a case in the news recently where a poor man in Bristol lost his life because everyone had wrongly accused him of being something he wasn't as his behaviour was perceived as odd- apparently enough to justify beating him up.

The point is because it's the view held by the majority it doesn't make it right.

No, it's not "enough said" at all.

His mother has "geeky" tastes, in your opinion, which she is making the "mistake" of sharing with her son.

You need to take a long hard look at yourself if you think there is nothing wrong with what you just said there.

People who complain about "know it alls" as anti-intellectual jerks.

Absolutely: Intelligent/academically gifted children often get bullied/beaten up for it, sometimes the bullying goes to a really extreme level I won't talk about.

There is no excuse for it, it is inverted snobbery and ignorant nasty people encouraging their children to be ignorant and nasty, too, are harming their own children as much as the ones they "dislike".

If she's genuinely baffled then maybe you could say something like "well you know he is incredibly talented and gifted, and that is bound to make the other children feel inferior, so maybe talk to him about whether he can be less obvious about how he knows he is really clever and that will help them warm to him."

There is an element of jealousy but there is also an element of gear grinding when someone is constantly declaring their own brilliance. Boys usually grow out of this because other boys call them out on it and then realise they are being schmucks, but he may be too young for it just yet.

Sometimes little children can't help it - I was "posher" than the other children at my primary school and many of them did think I was a pompous ass but it usually evens out when you reach high school and become a bit more self aware plus meet a broader range of kids from other schools.

He may be getting a bit old for declaring "I'm a clever boy" though.

Poor boy being bullied, nothing really justifies that. Are you sure that his parents aren't aware, that they haven't witnessed some of this before? I'm not sure you should say anything, it will come across as you attacking their child who is going through a rough time.

I stopped being friends with a woman over her child's behaviour, I just stopped holding play dates and meet ups. I never confronted her over it because I knew it would fall on deaf ears, her child was already being dealt with by the school for bullying but the mum was very insistent that her child was not a bully and just had a bold personality, she didn't see anything wrong with her daughters behaviour.

Blimey. I think I have my answer here in this thread. I won't say anything.

Just to clarify though, I'm not victim blaming. I don't want to give too many details away in case it outs me but I get to see him interacting with other children quite a lot. The reality is that no-one will be liked if they constantly interrupt and disrupt interactions between others. It's this kind of behaviour that the other children don't seem to like and why they exclude him.

The social exclusion is what is viewed as bullying by my friend. It's not physical or verbal but he doesn't get asked to join in anything.

By victim blaming you reveal yourself to be in support of the aggressors in this situation, frankly. I wouldn't bank on any "gentle" twatbaggery being received well.

Besides which I wouldn't assume she hasn't spoken to him about this already (or that he hasn't worked it out). DC are quite clever (must be thanks to DH because I'm a right thicko!) and I have explained tallest poppy syndrome to them and why they should largely ignore people like.. that.

Absolutely: Intelligent/academically gifted children often get bullied/beaten up for it

From what I've seen in various stages of life, I have to disagree with this. I can't recall from memory anyone being bullied purely on the fact they get better grades. In fact, some of the more popular children in my secondary school were top set, straight A students who went on to be doctors, Oxbridge graduates, City high flyers, etc (and this was a basic comp). It was often the children who were either considered 'weird' (didn't like pop culture, weren't interested in relationships, possibly gay, did some odd hobby etc) or those who had attitude problems that found themselves getting bullied. I used to get good grades, I also fell into both latter categories along with having some hidden problems at home. I know I was bullied for those points, not for better marks I had.

Very few people have issues with those who are academically able (unless they have very low confidence in their own abilities) unless those intelligent people are unbearably smug with it, everything is a competition and they cannot have joy or praise for other's achievements.

Edmund, I think that really does depend on the school. Some do have a culture were it's OK to be bright and academically achieving. But others (and yes I am looking at you, South Manchester Comprehensive) really don't and those who went on to be Drs, to Oxbridge, etc, were a small group who were seen as outsiders.

OP, given your further description do you think there's anything else going on underneath that behaviour. ADHD or dyspraxia might be reasons for him speaking before he thinks.

You can say "im really good at maths! I don't know why, I just am, I like being good at maths!"

Or you can say
"I'm so good at maths. I'm better than everyone else. Everyone else in my class is stupid and I'm the best".

Test: which one would make a child rather, erm, unpopular with class mates?

Children who excel are often easy povkings for their peers and encouraged by the "tall poppy syndrome" as they are taught by adults to want to knock someone down a prg or two for simply being good at something.
Children do brag. They all do.
They go too far.
"I'm the fastest" etc etc. Because they are learning what is considered "good" and they are just glad and confident. But then they learn, sometimes painfully, when to shut up or where to draw the line.
Some never do.
As for geeky hobbies. Meh, nothing wrong with sharing time snd enthusiasm with children. No doubt you'd be keen to slate a parent that spent all their hobby time seperate to their children.

From what I've seen in various stages of life, I have to disagree with this. I can't recall from memory anyone being bullied purely on the fact they get better grades.

It's great that you don't perceive this thing as happening to anyone. I've seen it happen, and known it to happen so often and so unambiguously that I have no doubt it does.

It's not the world's worst problem by any means, but the idea it doesn't is not something I could take seriously.

*doesn't happen

This is quite a good book on friendships in children

www.amazon.co.uk/Unwritten-Rules-Friendship-Strategies-Friends-ebook/dp/B00FOR2DL8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499254807&sr=8-1&keywords=the+rules+of+friendship&tag=mumsnetforum-21

Maybe suggest this for your friend and she may work out for herself why he is having problems and be able to help him. The rules of social interaction are pretty complex and you only have to get them a little bit wrong to find you stand out. It's hard enough for adults to get right all the time, let alone a little boy. I think gentle guidance is the way to go rather than blunt and unkind pointing out of his faults.

Presumably he has been praised for his cleverness and thinks he is stating facts and just not empathising with the feelings of those he is talking to. Maybe praise him for other qualities - kindness, thoughtfulness etc.

Is your own dc a peer of his? If so I'd have no problem saying to a friend that dc was hurt by X and doesn't want to meet up for the mo. (And I would understand completely if a friend said same to me). Might be a chance to give her pause for thought, otherwise I'd keep fairly schtum.

I work with 40/50/60 year old engineers who are still like this. They are smug and mean and wonder why they never progressed in life.

I've seen guys like this crushed socially when they go for site visits. I've actually seen one cry because he was overbearing and belittling to a group of contractors who then made his life hell (e.g. never ending pranks etc) and he ended up breaking down on site.

It's great that you don't perceive this thing as happening to anyone

I didn't say 'it doesn't happen', I'm saying from purely my own view and various experiences that there is usually more to someone being picked on than only what grades they have. In fact, there is certainly a wider view in society that being less academic is a very bad thing - 'you'll end up working in McDonalds cleaning toilets' is a classic line thrown out to those considered to not be excelling. As a society on the whole, we treat the less able far worse than those who achieve, I don't think there is much difference in schools (though it obviously does happen on both ends of the scale).

Perhaps you can ask her some questions in a way that will make her realise what causes her sons unpopularity?

I would usually have said to tell her, because that's what good friends are for.

But.

Apparently she is delusional. She knows her son, she must have noticed what he's like. And telling a delusional person the truth might lead to a temper tantrum of epic proportions.

It is up to you whether you want to be friends with a delusional person, but in my experience, if you poke a needle in their delusion balloon, they don't take to it kindly.

Oh, and not being invited to anything is not bullying. I was bullied in school and I would have been HAPPY to just not be invited to join in.

He's obnoxious, other children avoid him. A normal reaction.

So he isn't bullied, he just doesn't get invited to stuff? He gloats and brags, so is unpopular. Perhaps tell her about a child you met somewhere who gloated and bragged until the other children didn't want to play?

Keep out of it op no good will come.

You seem overly invested in your friends kids? I generally dislike any child unless it came out of me or my child or close relation.

And they have their moments

The only possible reason for saying something to your friend would be if it actually had a chance of helping. It won't. And you can't usualy trace bullying and unpopularity to undesirable character traits. Many of the most popular kids are absolute pains in the arse. 9 yo kids are often not very good judges of character and are likely to choose friends on the basis of who's got a cool lunch box or who is better at Clash of Clans, not on who has a charming personality and is a good friend.

Gloating when others make mistakes (like the child in the OP) is certainly worse than the victim then not inviting the gloater.

DS has a real gloater in his class. When they were 4, everyone still made their kids invite the boy, he was young and still learning and mum bragged endlessly about him, so not his fault, yadayada. Now they are 10, he does not get invited. I don't make my DS invite him anymore after a sleepover on which young Master Braggard laughed about DS's toys and clothes, called him babyish and boring and then told me the food I serve is "chav food". I'd given them fish fingers . His mum hasn't even realised he isn't invited anymore, so even more deluded and unaware than OP's friend.