Black girls are less innocent REALLY

[Fidoandacupoftea]

What have we come to as a society. As a mum of young girls I am angry, terrified and just can't understand the world

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40451554/black-girls-perceived-as-less-innocent-by-us-adults

DarkChocolat

I'm sorry because we must be talking at cross purposes. To my ears, you keep insisting that black people - any non white people in fact - are not recognized as part of the UK class system. They sit outside it and instead are treated as chavs. You also stated you've never heard a white person refer to a black person as posh. This is difficult for me to square with my own experiences as a black person and those of all of my black family, friends, neighbors, colleagues and mentors and also all the other races I've spent time with. Hell, when I was at uni, there were tons of really posh asians who were basically hooray henrys. They were recognized as such. Nobody failed to recognize their class due to their race.

I'm not really sure what your swimming pool example proves either. But like you said, maybe I've misunderstood the question.

Kigali04

"Black children" may be more likely to be excluded from school but only black caribbeans. Black children of african descent have an identical exclusion rate to white children.

I found the UK pretty unpleasant when I was living there. Lots of racism and open sneering about my accent. People shocked my boyfriend was white. Etc.

Compared to where, Rivers?

(Mere curiosity.)

Rivers I am very sorry that happened to you. People should be polite and I hope most English people are to others of all kinds. We tend to say sorry even if someone barges into us which is perhaps one reason we are not as racist as many other places.

Yes posh non whites certainly exist.

What Rolo said. To say that non-white people in the UK are only seen as working class or chavs by white people isn't accurate.

Plus there are a lot more mixed marriages in the U.K. than in the US...my DS is not white but he has a white MC stereotype mum who feeds him rice cakes in Waitrose and takes him to baby swimming...of course he's part of the British class system.

There were people who complained that Rue - an innocent, very cute girl character - was portrayed by a black actor, despite the fact she was written as black. (Some people were convinced she must be white and blonde after reading the book, prejudice apparently overriding reality)
I do remember when that happened and Amandla stengberg handled it very well. She has grown into an amazing black girl who knows her places and can hold her own. She is now an amazing young woman with a voice and has challenged a lot of people publicly in regards to racism.

The point you highlighted links directly to the video plus how black women are portrayed in block buster movies or popular shows. There is the notion that black women are strong enough to stand on their own. They should not be treated with the fragility ascribed to women (to some, black women are not women enough)
There is also the notion that the darker the woman the more issues they have, the more they stand on their own and no man wants that type of strong woman. It's also, the excuse a lot of black use for not dating black women and the fear men of other racial groups hold about black women. There is also, the belief that the darker the woman the more issues they have because of the amount of racism they would have faced from all sides and makes them unlovable (relationship wise) and this is portrayed in the media in so many ways too. Some subtle, some obvious and others like a joke.

I think this article is interesting to read and how you rarely see a black woman or woman of colour being the love interest. The notion of the strong black woman and how women of colour should try and break it down because it's actually damaging to them. It's not helping with relationships nor is it helping with the way other people view them. It's not their fault they have to be strong, but because of hierarchy within the black community, black women have to always toughen up and be everything to everybody they have to look after. While the men can live their lives freely and can one day decide to grow up like jay z at almost 50. That is bonkers.
We cannot expect a five year old to fight battles they don't even know it exist because of this strong black girl/ woman.

stitchmediamix.com/2016/05/13/black-ladies-deserve-love-too-lupita-nyongo-concern-trolling-and-white-feminism/

This was doing the rounds not long ago about black British boys views of black women. My hurt bleeds for all the young dark skin girls out their. It was bad enough when I was at shook when the word "bleak" was used because you are referred won't light enough to be just black. This is London by the way. At it's something that exist among black young people. I think the age group that use that word would be under 35.

mobile.twitter.com/heronche/status/870980787432239105

The idea that black girls lacking innocence might actually be related to the idea that maybe black parents are not good at parenting. I would not put that pass racist. So the teachers and adults are taking it upon themselves to discipline every little child like mistakes a child makes because the parents won't do it at home. (This in regards to unequal discipline teachers ditch out compared to black children's counter parts)

However, the funny thing is the one of toughest parents I have ever come across have been black. And black Americans have been campaigning to change the extreme punishments (corporal) they was legacy of slavery that black parents need to learn to abandon and needs dealing with.

Plus there are a lot more mixed marriages in the U.K. than in the US...my DS is not white but he has a white MC stereotype mum who feeds him rice cakes in Waitrose and takes him to baby swimming...of course he's part of the British class system.

You know what is interesting? The number of black men married to white women and number of black women to white men.

Out side of London, Birmingham and probably other big cites (I don't know about their ratios) you will find it's almost equal.

In London I found it rare to find white men with black women. I could be wrong but that has been my observation. Apart from a friend of mine I can't think of any other mixed race children with black mums.

However I do know a few outside of London, probably any black woman I know outside of London is married to a white person.

But can you give one example of something that would be truly good for white women but bad for black women, or vice versa? I think the link I posted above and the post might help. Probably not directed at this point but hopefully you will get the gist. I also, think the link posted might be of help a lot.
I believe in the dismantling of the patriarchy as whole and I guess that makes me radical. But I also know, that the way patriarchy treats both groups of women is different and that needs tackling differently with an understanding that the no woman is left behind to the wolves.

@rolopolovolo @ 12:46 👏👏👏 the guardian drives me mad with those too. I tried different blogs like black Ballard but they are not there yet with their views on British racism, recently they seem to have had a revamp, hopefully they will continue that way writing about British issues.

The guardian's black section is so American. It would be nice is one news paper actually had a proper black section dealing with British issues without referring to America.

Most of the woke black journalist I know all defected to America for work. I guess racism could be part of it the same reason black acted do it too. I also think it's easier because there is abundance of available materials that lots of people will understand.

In regards to poshness, Emma mcquiston is my only go to black British upper class woman I know of who is a live.

She said: “There has been some snobbishness, particularly among the much older generation. There’s class and then there’s the racial thing. It’s a jungle and I’m going through it and discovering things as I grow up. I’m not super-easily offended but it’s a problem when someone’s making you feel different or separate because of your race, or forming an opinion about you before they know you.”

Her mother, Suzanna, said that after the engagement she worried about whether her daughter would be accepted.
I always felt there might be this slightly snobbish thing about anyone that’s black, but it seems everybody has taken Emma into their hearts and they love her. She’s just such a decent girl.”It's interesting how her mother who is white, her views varying from her daughter who is mixed race on what Emma was facing.

Emma is not a woman who came from poverty and made it. Her father is an oil Barron. She new her husband from the age of four and she is from the circle.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9964110/A-social-jungle-for-first-black-lady-of-Longleat.html

When she recently had a second child through a surrogate in America the comments where horrendous and full of racism.

Ah, I didn't know that. I am glad they had a second child (genetic child of each of them). www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4098436/Lady-Weymouth-reveals-new-surrogate-son.html

I don't think I'm wilfully blind when I see around me less racism than in the US here in London, but I certainly would not say there is none. Of course there will be just as there is discrimination against women and class discrimination too. We know people where we live in London - I am thinking of two couples - blonde /white mother, black father. I don't think it's even particularly notable. I see fewer mixed marriages between the many local people here who are from India and Pakistan and others and I presume that is for reasons of family pressure to marry without caste or only a hindu or muslim or whatever.

quencher I think you are wrong about non-London places having equal ratios of blackmum/whitedad and whitemum/blackdad. I am mixed race and I am from outside of London. I know a lot of other mixed race (black/white) people from Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Liverpool and only about 20% have black mothers. I think this may be an extension of 'black girls are less innocent' - ' black women are more scary / less feminine'.

On the other hand, in all the white and Chinese / Japanese / Korean etc relationships I know of, only one is a Chinese man and a white woman. Again, possibly due to a perception of Asian women being submissive and feminine and easy to control.

Its the Sapphire Jezebel etc tropes isnt it. Black girls depicted as strong and manlike, loud, and very sexual. USA are worse but social media and the shit chatted on there = its insinuating more into this society.

All heavily perpetuated by those stupid underachieving "Fauxteps" in America who preach black consciousness yet hate black girls/women. Theyre dumb and confused.

Then you have such as the idiotic Erykah Badu who said girls shouldn't wear above knee skirts to school and not expect men to have sexual feelings towards them. She apologised after Twitter backlash

I dont think people like to talk of certain aspects publicly. The Fauxteps thing is pretty deep, too long to explain here. But its certainly an issue. UK is nowhere near as bad tho.

Also - those promoting the stereotpyical tropes online strike me as the type of dysfunctional dickheads who'd be swerved in real life. But now, they have FB where they can spout off and have a voice. They have YT & a phone camera where they can record themselves talking crap about women. It then appears they are the majority. They really aren't though.

However because they're around its doubly important to make sure girls know their worth, that they are beautiful and intelligent and they do matter. Its unfortunate that some people will believe stereotypes. But fortunate that many dont

Not as bad in UK doesnt mean that racist and sexist bias doesnt exist here. It certainly does. Meant to add that

@SayNoToCarrots I think we said the same thing.
Out side of London, Birmingham and probably other big cites (I don't know about their ratios) you will find it's almost equal. the unknown ratios I was referring to was places like Liverpool and Manchester. I have never been to those places so I put it down as possible other.

Its the Sapphire Jezebel etc tropes isnt it. Black girls depicted as strong and manlike, loud, and very sexual. USA are worse but social media and the shit chatted on there = its insinuating more into this society. I agree with you however, I think is the other way round. The Jezebel idea has never left the racist sphere (post slavery ideology) on how black women are viewed. The ingrained misogyny about black women comes through loud and clear from both black men and other people.

Fauxteps this is a first for me coming across this word. I thought you meant hoteps at first because there are some that have horrible misogynistic views. I guess that's who they are. I have just realised while writing this that the "woke" in general are actually borderline "hoteps". All hoteps are woke for instance.

Quencher - Fauxtep is my name for Hoteps as theyre so false in terms of preaching a black unity that they dont live by. Almost always married to or in ltr with non-black women, but totally and oddly preoccupied with what black women do and don't do. Fashion themselves as "The Black Woman Whisperer" and are relentless in their Misogynoir via music and media. They hate black women, mixed race men, and white men equally.

Theyre currently in a tizz about Serena Williams (forever hated as a dark skinned woman who's done well) and her beaux. Awful comments.. + she's committed the ultimate sin of 'dating out'. They have a lot in common with the supremacists they tell us to hate

Articles such as the one posted pick up on all this...Im not sure I see the use/purpose of article tbh. These men aren't the majority although Internet makes it appear so. They just have a bigger arena in which to chat crap. In real life I know nobody like them at all. Perhaps if I was in America I would, who knows... I did come across some very dubious views when I spent 2 years there.

One thing I dislike about UK is the way black women are so often talked out of their own lived experiences. "oh no its not/couldnt have been this, its that" by people who havent walked in a black woman's shoes. I also have a suspicion at times we are viewed as one black homogenous mass who are all culturally socialised the same.

Also that 'Class' is now inserted into almost every conversation about racism against black people, as if class is the biggest issue. It really isn't. As the article shows, I guess

I probably inserted class. We know law firms where posh black students from private schools with all A*s are gold dust , as it fulfils the race criteria clients rightly demand but they also have the grades and fit the middle class culture and talk in the way that fits with the clients. So in some areas of life I do think class is relevant as is gender - it always seems to be women whose place is in the wrong.

I am still not convinced in the UK that black girls are regarded as sexually free. Like all teenage girls they differ between each other of course but if they ave African or Jamaican etc grandparents then surely you assume the background is strict, possibly Christian whereas white girls might be more free to have sex with whom they like as they have more sexual freedom and sex is not seen as a sin or wrong in the same way.

Lucysky I was a posh black student with A*s as are my DDS. It doesn't make much difference outside the workplace where I'm not in work mode and don't even speak English unless I want to.

African or Jamaican parents = strict background isn't set in stone. Id say it was more so that way years ago. Some parents/upbringing are strict, some are not. & there are many cultural differences within the many African Caribbean countries. A thought is that I'm not happy with "black" as a descriptor even though I use it. We aren't 1 big homogenous mass of people who've been raised and socialised the same

It's not exactly that black girls are deemed sexually free. More that the self-hating misogynist/misogynoir agenda (specifically aimed at African American and African Caribbean girls/women) to promote black girls as promiscuous and lacking value as a life partner, is being picked up on heavily. It's easy for them to pick on black girls and women as they perceive us to have less power than them in this world. When in reality I know plenty of black couples/families who are together. Internet misfits are being given too loud a voice, and their ramblings presented as a norm for us all

Albeit for example Jamaican dancehall culture with its sexually explicit lyrics regarding black women's bodies, alongside African American rap in the same vein, has a lot to answer for. Black girls/women have to deal with the weight of that. Whether Jamaican or African American, or not. Every nation in the world can hear what's being said and sung. That brings it's own problems re behaviour of some people due to perception they have.

I took part in a campaign a few years ago to prevent Tommy Sotomayor - misogynist 'hero' - from touring the UK to spread his bile. The campaign worked, venue pulled events. It shows how people can get things spectacularly wrong- they obviously saw his social media following and deemed him a good money making prospect for a show. But real life campaign joined by both black men and women, showed them that what works in America won't necessarily work here. In America, that tour would have gone ahead. He even has a radio show there.

So whilst class is an issue, it's never going to be main or defining is due for black people. Not the 1st thing that comes to mind when entrenched racism and misogynist are so much to the fore

That's interesting re posh black students being gold dust in some places. Black women I assume...? I've just noted an article somewhere on FB babbling on about black women in University being co-erced into feminism and vigilance being maintained against this (aka stop sending black girls to Uni...!)

Good thread

quencher - dh isn't black, he's from the Philippines (well his family are) I know lots of white men - S.E. Asian women couples, but only 1 (and that's just vaguely through Facebook) the other way around.

I don't know any couples with a black mum and white dad either, though I know a few the other way around.

I am no expert and I'm white but I think all of us should always be on the alert for racism. My parents were very anti racism (and anti sexism and anti homophobia) right back to the 1940s. Some families have that culture.

In the next couple of weeks I like all law firms in the country have to fill out my diversity data which for most firms is then required to be published. That includes how many went to private school as well as colour and disabilities.

The black young man my daughter knows (he's a lawyer) who has got a very hard to get law firm job and is her friend is not posh black. He's London workign class black but very very good, good grades, worked his way up from just about nothing, often nowhere even proper to sleep at night sometimes.

One thing I dislike about UK is the way black women are so often talked out of their own lived experiences. "oh no its not/couldnt have been this, its that" by people who havent walked in a black woman's shoes. I also have a suspicion at times we are viewed as one black homogenous mass who are all culturally socialised the same. Another clap from me 👏
I refused to support john Ridley for his drama "guerrilla" staring idris Elba because he thought he could Write about black British history in 70s without including black women, but he thought it was ok to include an Indian woman because he is married to one. Mind boggles.
When a young black woman challenged him during an interview, he questioned her knowledge on it and how would she know. It turns out her mother was one of the women he disregarded when writing his drama based on history.

Your last sentence is very true and that is one of those things that come out a lot when dating. No! we are not all the same.

quencher - YY John Ridley. An African American man who came right along and simply erased black women from the depiction of the history of the British Black Power Movement. No mention of women such as Althea Jones Lecointe who was prominent in the movement and at one point took over leadership. She was hugely influential. Similarly, Beverly Bryan of the Brixton Women's Group. So many black women involved. Yet what this man did was feature ONE black woman, who played the part of a prostitute and police informer

Yes I heard about his gall in questioning the woman at preview. Apparently he was coldly dismissive to women there and would deliberately turn his back and speak only to men. I got this from others who were there.

I can't recall if it was the Independent or Guardian who wrote an extensive piece regarding the preview and his attitude, and his disingenuous later intimation that black women made Freda Pinto cry. No doubt so he could get the old "all black women are aggressive" stereotype going. The press saw right through him, however.

His reasons for featuring an Indian woman as the supposed female face of the Movement are embarrassingly pathetic. I blame Idris Elba more so, because as a black British Caribbean man he knew far better than to produce this fabricated nonsense. Yet, he did so. They are an example of casual misogynoir - presenting to a public, many of whom will perceive their presentation to be true, a falsehood based around convenient erasure of black women. Oh except one, portrayed as promiscuous and untrustworthy. Ho hum

Interestingly young black people on Twitter were up in arms about it all and had a lot to say. Good to see that. A reminder to silly Ridley that England is not America and one "black" cap does not fit all

Yet more reasons why class isn't exactly the 1st consideration for black women.

LucySky that's interesting re Diversity Data. I'd no idea there there's a "quota" thing going on. It's a good thing, I think. Certainly for your DDs achiever friend. Perhaps a step towards breaking that glass ceiling. Should have said I was a "perceived" posh black student btw. I'm far from posh

@mistressdeecee I don't think Idris Alba is black Caribbean at all. According to Wikipedia (I know,I know) he is Sierra leoneian and Ghanaian? No Caribbean nation I know has "claimed " him as such.

I do agree that there are aspects of dancehall music that are very misogynistic and homophobic and rap music as well.
I am interested in your campaign to block Tommy Sotomayor from having a platform in UK. I do follow his channel( well previously anyway, I think YouTube deleted it) he is very provocative and I do find him offensive in the main
But my partner who is black likes him and supports his views sometimes. Sometimes he disagrees but some videos he yells at the screen in supoort, even if the most vile language and imagery is used.
I mostly disagree on the fact that he is an extreme MRA.