Black girls are less innocent REALLY

[Fidoandacupoftea]

What have we come to as a society. As a mum of young girls I am angry, terrified and just can't understand the world

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40451554/black-girls-perceived-as-less-innocent-by-us-adults

I think it is important to be able to discuss these things, and to be able to have the self awareness to recognise that most of us have uncomfortable subconscious biases we don't like to admit to. Even people who are horrified by racism can have a secret little voice, deep inside their head that tuts at a "naughty" black pre-schooler behaving boisterously in a cafe, whilst excusing a "cute" white pre-schooler exhibiting exactly the same behaviour.

until a relative (who is black) who'd lived in both UK and US said to me that she preferred it in US as at least they'd make clear how they felt about you to your face face as opposed to the subtle way it was expressed in the UK

I've heard this before more than once, and never understood it. I expect most of us here are women. Do you prefer misogynists to keep their bullshit to themselves and just have a suspicion they dislike you, or would you rather get all the hatred delivered right to your face? I know which I'd prefer. People are free to think anything they like, but I'd rather they kept it to themselves!

I'm also not saying it's acceptable to spread hatred around but how can we address these problems if people pretend they don't exist? If people are hateful I'd prefer if they'd expose that to world about themselves and not pretend they're all great. Equally we should all constantly question ourselves about subtle or unconscious bias

The historian David olusoga made an interesting documentary series a while ago about blacks people in the U.K. - in it he commented on how the 19thC antislavery book 'uncle tom's cabin' was hugely popular in the UK and allowed British people to be all righteous about how barbaric slavery was while simultaneously supporting a damaging infantile picture of black people that conformed to the narrative about the need for the British empire - which obviously had a significant degree of barbarity itself!

Even people who are horrified by racism can have a secret little voice, deep inside their head that tuts at a "naughty" black pre-schooler behaving boisterously in a cafe, whilst excusing a "cute" white pre-schooler exhibiting exactly the same behaviour.

Total shit. Nobody likes loud children in cafes of any race. But a posh loud black child would get a better response than a white working class child. And you know they would.

I don't get it at all. Why would racism being a problem in both countries mean that they have to be EXACTLY THE SAME? Why would the stereotypes be EXACTLY THE SAME? Despite a completely different history, geography, government structure, culture, welfare state, racial composition?

Are people dumb? Would you expect racism to be the same in Brazil and the UK? France and the UK? China and the UK? Denmark and the UK?

Is it because they are white? Speak English? Please open your eyes. UK racism will never be resolved because it is never explored! All that happens is that people talk about US racism and then say - yeah, the UK too. Bullshit.

Innocence in the UK is VERY CLASS BASED. It's not as much in the US. People assume that working class kids are fast, forward, not innocent here. Because class is our primary social cleavage and race is Americas.

A lot of things in the US that happen due to race in the UK happen due to class. It's not the same.

That's not the case here. In the US, black children seriously underperform every other group. That's not the case here: WWC boys do. And a large proportion of African children are actually doing extremely well.

WWC boys v All BME boys is not a valid comparison.

All white boys v all BME boys is closer but still not really a great comparison. (I'm assuming by 'here' you mean UK, happy to be corrected).

Its also worth noting that WWC boys still earn more job for job than their female peers.

What an awful generalisation .
The poor kids have to grow up fast to deal with racial predjudice , but that doesn't mean they are less innocent sexually .

Even people who are horrified by racism can have a secret little voice, deep inside their head that tuts at a "naughty" black pre-schooler behaving boisterously in a cafe, whilst excusing a "cute" white pre-schooler exhibiting exactly the same behaviour.

Oh my god what utter bullshit. Misbehaving children in public are never "cute".

rolopolovolo thank you for an actual first hand experience, rather than hyperbolic drivel.

Yup, I can definitely believe that. Lived in the US for 3 years. My husband is half black. Our children have his skin tone. In all our years in Germany (dh is German) and the UK, we never had any problems regarding our mixed union.

Not to say racial relations in the UK and Germany are perfect (far from it) but the USA really is on another level.

Watching that video broke my heart.

I meant to elaborate that we had some problems in the US because I'm white and he's mixed; problems which we have never had in the UK or Germany.

Innocence in the UK is VERY CLASS BASED. It's not as much in the US. People assume that working class kids are fast, forward, not innocent here. Because class is our primary social cleavage and race is Americas

I agree with your comments on UK class but class/social group is also a big factor in the US. Its less obvious or definable to a UK eye, but there are no shortage of nice middle class parents who want to keep their kids away from the trailer trash and matching attitudes through the hierarchy. That was true across racial groups as far as I could see.

I do agree that cross racial problems in the US are much more overt than here and the availability of guns adds a massive risk factor above anything in the UK

I said "boisterous" not "misbehaving"
People can interpret a child giggling as boisterous.

And yes - completely agree that class based prejudice is a problem in the UK, and that we differ from the US in many ways. But it is possible to be concerned about both racism AND class based prejudice. The two are often connected, but this thread was specifically talking about perceptions based on race, so that is why most people on the thread are concentrating on racism. Although the observations made in the US study cannot be completely carried over to the UK, it is till bloody sad and still has some relevance in understanding how our subconscious bias can influence our impressions of people. Maybe a similar study should be conducted in the UK.

WWC boys v All BME boys is not a valid comparison. All white boys v all BME boys is closer but still not really a great comparison. (I'm assuming by 'here' you mean UK, happy to be corrected).

Fine but if it's just about "race", why do black African and black caribbean figures look so different?

For example, black caribbean exclusions/grades are worse than white kids but the numbers for black africans are better or equal, despite the fact that this figure includes refugees and asylum seekers of varying ethnicity. Excluding refugees would have black african kids performing better in school and have better disciplinary records than white pupils!

until a relative (who is black) who'd lived in both UK and US said to me that she preferred it in US as at least they'd make clear how they felt about you to your face face as opposed to the subtle way it was expressed in the UK

I think the Brexit referendum really highlights this. Before I wasn't too sure what the attitude to 'others' was here. Immediately after there were shops daubed with Swastikas, Black and Eastern European people openly verbally abused in the street etc. It was like finally the referendum result had given the racists a mandate to openly express their hatred of the different ethnicities and religions around them.

you say the UK dont have the same views and although this isnt about sex it is about racism still existing in the UK

www.brightonandhovenews.org/2017/06/30/brighton-hospital-bosses-unfairly-sacked-black-consultant/

Rolo Would you say black children fall into the established British class categories? For instance an 'Upper class' black kid, middle class black kid etc. I've never heard of a black person being referred to in the U.K as 'posh' or in a class sense and when you open 'posh' magazines e.g. country living or whatever they're called, i think that a property mag actually, but you know what I mean, Tatler?, black people never feature.
I'm also not entirely sure how black people will be received in the two upper classes.
Personally, I've alwYs felt if you're black, you are automatically categorised as 'working class'. But maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see any evidence to support anything else.

I agree with your comments on UK class but class/social group is also a big factor in the US. Its less obvious or definable to a UK eye, but there are no shortage of nice middle class parents who want to keep their kids away from the trailer trash and matching attitudes through the hierarchy. That was true across racial groups as far as I could see.

I do agree that cross racial problems in the US are much more overt than here and the availability of guns adds a massive risk factor above anything in the UK

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Is anyone here black and ever lived in the UK and US? RACE IN AMERICA TRUMPS CLASS. A rich black person displaying all the middle class markers in America will still be treated like a poor chav here. There is no class for black people. That's the real issue.

And class in America is completely dominated by money. Look at Trump ffs. He's crass, boorish, unintelligent and vulgar. In the UK, he'd be pilloried. Not in America.

It is a completely different experience and I wish people would just stop making these stupid comparisons.

I nevers aid there was no racism. My son was the only white boy in his class (in London) about a year ago but intheir school when most people are not white I don't see racism. London is crammed with loads of different people and most are not white British.

Also overloads of the UK it is the "white trash slags" not my language whose fathers have no problems with the girls being sexually active (and good for those fathers - why can't girls have sex if they like?) that are in one category and the pure as the driven snow virginity protected non whites particularly the hindu and muslim girls but although orthodox jewish and other groups with no sex before marriage rules who are protected - see the Asian gangs in Rotherham and elsewhere - white girls fair game, seen as loose and sexually free v non whites virgins no sex until marriage.

USA is a different ball game.

Some links more relevant to the UK:
The UK is better than many European countries, but not good enough.
figshare.com/s/730b15bec39c1908cb31
Article below covers issues in US and the UK. A lot of the research into implicit bias has been done by American researchers, so there is naturally more data on US attitudes than UK ones but that doesn't mean that everything is fine in the UK.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40124781

implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

"In the UK, he'd be pilloried."

I know British people who love him.

Depends how 'innocent' is being defined.
I know from my own experience of growing up in the UK, I had to
be more vigilant and realistic around people who viewed me as having less value. So I was not 'innocent' and trusting in the goodness of the society in which I was going up.

DarkChocolat

Of course black people fall into established class categories. Have you never met wealthy upper middle class black people before? Cutglass accents. Finishing school in switzerland and all that? I have. And they were very well accepted in St Pauls or whatever. Married to white wealthy investment bankers etc etc.

Now of course they can't be "upper class". Because being upper class means being of born nobility and they aren't. So their kids can be, but they can't. But that's no different from Kate Middleton, who is still upper middle class despite being married to the future king of england!

Whilst I think when it comes to race, problems in the US are greater than the UK, I do think many mistake subtle racism to be lesser than overt racism. As others have mentioned, the US is more overt but that doesn't mean the UK is a utopia (from personal experience).

I'm white South African - married to a black South African. I am of a mix of Afrikaans/British descent. And the former heritage (Afrikaans) are far more overt with their disgusting racism. Many times will blankly expose it to someone's face. Whereas I found South Africans of British descent will smile in your face (happened so many times to my husband and I when we first started dating) and then whisper something racially derogatory when the person is gone.

Fine but if it's just about "race", why do black African and black caribbean figures look so different?

It isn't - that was precisely the point I was trying to make. People routinely compare WWC with all BME boys and its not a valid comparison.

RACE IN AMERICA TRUMPS CLASS

Again, I didn't say otherwise. I was challenging the assertion that class is not a big issue in the US. The divide between rich and poor black is also massive in the US, it isn't the non issue suggested.

I didn't say that this is a bigger or even equal issue to race in the US.