Black girls are less innocent REALLY

[Fidoandacupoftea]

What have we come to as a society. As a mum of young girls I am angry, terrified and just can't understand the world

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40451554/black-girls-perceived-as-less-innocent-by-us-adults

Can someone please explain this to me cos I'm thick

Why, when you fill in an application for a job role, is there a full section saying "We are an Equal Opportunities employer- so please tell us if you are White/Black/Asian" etc.

Isn't this counter-productive to being equal opportunities in the first place? Surely you should get through to face-to-face stage based on your qualifications and suitability alone, and an employer should be seeking that 2nd stage without knowing your ethnicity?
That would be in my mind, equal opportunities.

Or are applications actually sorted by the Equal Opportunities info, to make sure a representative number of each race gets through regardless of their ability, so an employer never gets accused of showing a particular bias?

I process new starters at work and noticed that out of all the ethnicity forms and passports only one new starter was black, and this is a company that employ 60-80 new starters a month in the UK. It struck me when I automatically go to click white on the system then noticed, that this one I was processing wasn't...its odd and not very diverse

I would also add that the reason why the negative stereotypes seem to point to White working class, is because the white majority in the UK think of society as made of white people only. Upper class = white, Middle class = White, Working class = White.

Black people are rarely thought of in/across these groups, they are simply classed as one homogenous bunch that's falls outside of the 3 main ones. Possibly the underclasses?. Black people are certainly stereotyped as chavs, dumb, thieves, etc

We are never gonna get rid of racism all the while we're saying black girls. Or white girls. How about just girls? Why does skin colour matter unless your describing someone for identification purposes. It's because misogynior exist and the two girls and women are treated differently within patriarchy. Usually what you try to fight for white women and girls tends to be the opposite for black women and children. Which means things you are fighting for black and women of colour will most likely be at logger heads with that of white women and children based on societal perception of each group.

Addley

Right, hence my statement that black people in the UK are invisible and black people in America are hypervisible. But being hyper visible in the US has not served black people at all. It's honestly been better to be invisible in the UK.

The fact that when racist UK policymakers thought about housing, education, healthcare and other things, they weren't thinking about black people was a good thing. Most American policies were explicitly designed to exclude and harm black people. They created laws thinking about black people, they zoned cities thinking abut black people, the constitution is written around fucking over black people!

Other minority groups have been given space to improve their lot but US black people have been constantly harassed. When African Americans have succeeded (google black wall street), they've been pulled down. It's not benign, it's deliberate and relentless.

The US media have pushed terrible images of black people for centuries.They've filled people's minds with black criminality, laziness, fecklessness and undesirability.

This is the price of hypervisibility in a racist society.

I've lived in the US and British black people who look at all the black americans on TV and all the music and feel jealous are fucking idiots. African Americans have paid a terrible price for their cultural visibility. The fact that in the UK, Lord Twatsbury of Nonce-Town barely remembered that black people existed when he was thinking of people to screw over is the only reason we're not in the same situation.

Rolo - Just read your update. I disagree, I believe blacks don't fall into the class system in the U.K but if they were to, they would be bunched into 'Working class' regardless of background simply because they are black.

Sorry I just read a post that said something about germans not having enslaved Africans and so having no baggage or something

I'll just leave this here then: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

the amnesia of Europeans about their colonial adventures and how these have served to construct both race and white supremacy is astonishing

Where I came from white girls were considered less innocent than asian or black girls. Because the black and asian girls all faced repurcussions for sexual behaviour from families, while the white girls didn't. This is community specific. In other areas Hindu/Punjabi girls are considered less innocent. A lot of work needs to be done to quash these stupid attitudes.

Exactly rolo; sorry, I should've made clearer I was agreeing with you

I am hoping with my dd generation this sort of thing is wiped out and there are less negative perceptions in the media.
We are all now so mixed these days this sort of attitude should be left in the last century.

Was cheering you until this point. But 'nobility' isn't restricted to 'came over with the Conqueror' caucasians

I am not exactly a fan of the notion that some people are more valuable by birth than some other people, which is what nobility and royalty are in a nutshell, but what exactly would prevent a black person from marrying into British nobility and have mixed-race children that are completely officially nobles within the British system?

Usually what you try to fight for white women and girls tends to be the opposite for black women and children.

Depends on whether you are a liberal feminist or a radical feminist. Liberal feminism indeed has some bullshit goals that black girls and women are more likely to see as the shit they are.

But can you give one example of something that would be truly good for white women but bad for black women, or vice versa?

I think it really is different in the US. They are completely preoccupied with race. Over here in the UK race matters too but it is mixed with class.

I would also add that the reason why the negative stereotypes seem to point to White working class, is because the white majority in the UK think of society as made of white people only. Upper class = white, Middle class = White, Working class = White.

Black people are rarely thought of in/across these groups, they are simply classed as one homogenous bunch that's falls outside of the 3 main ones. Possibly the underclasses?. Black people are certainly stereotyped as chavs, dumb, thieves, etc

This is completely wrong.

Firstly, the idea that only white people are read as a specific class is completely false. I went to uni with the poshest asians in the world and they were treated as posh twats by their fellow poshos. I have really posh black friends who are read as posh. Completely differently to me who is not posh. Black british people and other minorities in the UK are treated as the class group their attributes fall into. Posh black people are treated as posh. Middle class as middle class. WC as WC.

I don't know if you're guessing but you are completely wrong. Are you an immigrant by any chance? Immigrants - non brits - of any race are treated as something outside the class system but that's nothing to do with race. A white American or European is also treated as not part of the UK class system. It's nothing to do with race.

Secondly, again you are missing my point. It's not that people don't harbor negative stereotypes in the UK against black people, it's that in the US all main negative societal stereotypes feature black people. A person who lives in all white area and has never met a black person will still think "criminal = black person" in America. All of America is structured around black people.

The difference between the UK and the US isn't that "black people might get shot in the US but not in the UK". The difference is night and day in literally every single interaction, system, structure and life chance. People are really stupid if they honestly think that America is just Britain with guns. It's not. If America isn't Britain with guns, how can British racism just be American racism without guns? Seriously, engage brain.

We are all now so mixed these days this sort of attitude should be left in the last century.

I agree it would be fantastic if we could get past racism in a generation, but it's not going to happen because of mixed-ness. I'm away from home in another part of the country at the moment, and was surprised when I realised the town centre I was walking through was almost entirely white-looking. In a whole afternoon, I think I saw one black guy and a couple of mixed-race children.

This is the same part of the country where a few years ago I was utterly shocked to hear casual use of extremely racist slurs in everyday conversation in the street. I just don't hear that out in the open where I live.

the amnesia of Europeans about their colonial adventures and how these have served to construct both race and white supremacy is astonishing

I agree that colonialism everywhere has helped to construct race, but there is a difference between justifying colonies that are far away, and justifying slavery that's going on in front of your own nose.

Seeing, daily, some great injustice going on, practically requires you to find ways to justify it to yourself, unless you are brave enough to oppose it, or strong enough to live with the cognitive dissonance.

Seeing, daily, some great injustice going on, practically requires you to find ways to justify it to yourself, unless you are brave enough to oppose it, or strong enough to live with the cognitive dissonance

it's pretty incredible that none of these Europeans/brits ever thought to wonder where the spectacular wealth of their empires came from

nice for them I guess that they had the luxury of being oblivious to the misery carried out in their name if that's what they fancied

Regarding "posh" black people: I have heard black people described as posh, or elite, and I think that black people, and women, can't win in that they are affected by both snobbery and inverted snobbery more than white men.
I have not heard the term "middle class" applied in a derigatory way to men as much as it is applied to women, usually to dismiss their voices (eg, dismissing feminists as "silly middle class women"). A middle class white man is just a man - he escapes the other labels. If a white man in the public eye is successful/wealthy, there seems to be less of a backlash against him than if a black woman is successful and wealthy, and dares to be in the public eye.
A good example is Gina Miller: Regardless of where your politics lie, she is a self made woman, yet I have heard her negatively described as "elite" "posh" etc in a way that I don't think a vocal, wealthy white man would have been.
There is an element of "putting them in their place" I think.

(Not really sure if I have articulated the above very well).

I am not exactly a fan of the notion that some people are more valuable by birth than some other people, which is what nobility and royalty are in a nutshell, but what exactly would prevent a black person from marrying into British nobility and have mixed-race children that are completely officially nobles within the British system?

Nothing and it's happened before throughout British history. People need to stop learning American history and LEARN FUCKING BRITISH AND EUROPEAN HISTORY. Learn about the empire and fucking colonialism. That's the structure British racism is built on. It's not built on American specific racism because this isn't America.

Most of the "woke" black journalists/activists in the UK couldn't pass a basic test on british colonialism.

And that's part of the reason that most (white) British people won't listen to anti racist discussions in the UK. It's being done with American terminology, using American studies, American examples and it's nothing to do with them. The guardian and social media focus 100% on the US when discussing the UK. They talk about the acceptability of black hair in the UK but use Michelle Obama as the example. They talk about police shootings in the UK but use Trayvon Martin as the example.

This study tells us NOTHING ABOUT THE UK.

squishysquirmy

Is there a backlash against Gina Miller because she is black or because she was anti-Brexit? I'm not disagreeing that people get angrier due to race/sex but does the backlash start because they are black or is it just nastier? In that case, where is the backlash against Baroness Amos or Bishop Sentamu?

In other words, I don't see any evidence that people in the UK get angry per se if a black person is successful.

Rolo - You've misunderstood me. Amongst ethnic minorities of course there is recognition of different groups or classes of people. Also the markers by which people are classed amongst the various ethnic minor ties are different heavily influenced by their country of origin.What I am talking about is how they fit into the traditional white social classes.

I'll give you an example of the common mindset. Friends of ours (black couple) just moved into their dream house. 5 bed huge detached, swimming pool, huge garden etc. They had some workmen round the house to fell some trees in the garden.

Friends went up to one of the men to discuss something and was pulled to one side and asked what her DH did for a living, as they had been trying to guess amongst themselves and all had agreed he must be a footballer . Friends DH is actually a very successful entrepreneur/CEO. The men were visibly surprised. Same DH who drives a sports car, has also been stopped on several occasions going out. By usually white people wanting to know who his football team is and quite disappointed when he just looks bewildered as he's on his way to the office.

The problem, white people generally think that if a black person is successful, has a nice car or house he can't be anything but either a Sportsman or an entertainer (not upper or middle class). . They don't think perhaps, he/she is well educated, business man, a consultant etc A white man with exactly the same profile would automatically be classed as middle class, well educated, successful in business.in fa t the debate on what he does for a living would never have come up.

I am also not talking about what goes on in the U.S, I have never lived there. I'm talking solely about the U.K.
I'm also not sure about your comment on 'immigrants' mindset. I'm not an immigrant in any case.

rolopolovolo: Both I think.
I think it is much, much more subtle than getting people angry at a black woman for being successful, I doubt those doing it are aware of the discrepancy in the way they direct their judgement. I'm not presenting any of this as fact, because I have no objective evidence, but it is my impression that the threshold at which labels like "middle class", or "posh" kick in in a derigatory way seem to be set lower for women and black people.

I first noticed it with sexism: A man who is "well spoken", and enjoying a comfortable income (not rich, but not poor either) is less likely to have his concerns dismissed as "middle class problems" as a woman is. Maybe its because our stereotype of (for example) a successful business person is a white man, so anyone who doesn't fit this stereotype is treated with more distrust? I don't know.

DarkChocolat

Amongst ethnic minorities of course there is recognition of different groups or classes of people. Also the markers by which people are classed amongst the various ethnic minor ties are different heavily influenced by their country of origin. What I am talking about is how they fit into the traditional white social classes.

So what you are saying is that when BME middle class people don't reflect traditional UK social classes markers, and instead reflect hybrid social class markers that are heavily influenced by their immigrant parents, they are treated differently? Yes, that's called a class system.

I think people don't really understand what class means. Class in the UK is not just about being rich, it's about reflecting class specific behavior. If someone's behavior reflects something different, they are generally treated differently.

I'll give you an example of the common mindset. Friends of ours (black couple) just moved into their dream house. 5 bed huge detached, swimming pool, huge garden etc. They had some workmen round the house to fell some trees in the garden.

Wow, I'm sorry but you're way off. What has living in a big detached house with a large pool got to do with the British class system? When did having a swimming pool ever denote any class status to anyone in the UK except that of NEW MONEY? If he lived in a large beautiful but ramshackle Victorian that he was slowly doing up and people still thought he was a footballer, then you'd have a point.

The problem, white people generally think that if a black person is successful, has a nice car or house he can't be anything but either a Sportsman or an entertainer (not upper or middle class).

No they don't. But it's clear you aren't talking about class at all. You're talking about money. I'm sorry to disappoint you but if anyone saw a white guy with a regional accent with a big house and swimming pool, they'd also think he was a footballer. If you saw someone who didn't look anything like an absolutely stereotypical middle class doctor/lawyer/banker/inherited twat (based on how he was dressed/car/affect) he'd also be assumed to a chancer unless he opened his mouth and had a cutglass accent and then it's all fine.

You are describing class.

It is very important we discuss and consider all these issues. It's a good thread. I hope my children whenever they come across racism never tolerate it. I never heard my parents born in the 1920s ever issue a single racist remark. We aren't that kind of family and I also hope we never tolerate racism ever. However it certainly exists.

If we are talking about loose morals I would love us to get away from a situation where free sexuality amongst teenage girls if something over protective sexist fathers try to stop whilst boys can do as they like as if sex were wrong! I see much more protection of innocent virginal teenage girls by non white families than white and I see that as damaging to the girls. It's a slightly different topic than that of general racism and class issues.

We do know a good few boarding school educated Nigerians etc and they are not particularly discriminated against in my view. If you have the good education and accent and behave in a certain way in this country whether you are black white or whatever you tend to fit in with that particular group. London is fairly good melting pot and perhaps more tolerant than some places. My sons who go to school with mostly Indian and Pakistani origin boys do find a bit of racism from those boys against other groups and cultures but I am sure it is no worse than you would find in some white families. At least we don't have a caste system in the British culture. In fact there were moves to make it illegal in the UK to discriminate on grounds of caste.

Rolo - You really don't seem to understand the question.
The British class system and how it is defined is not a hidden secret. It is well understood and what the markers are.

My dh is west african and I can state that both girls and boys are protected by their parents from advances from the opposite sex. My dh complains of his mother turning away girls from their house as a teen, I don't think he entered into sexual relationships until at least 19/20. The main influences being finishing their education and strict Christian upbringing. He tells me that his friends are more concerned over keeping an eye for their teenage sons so they don't get involved with the wrong crowds or wrong girls even. Upper class west Africans particularly would be highly choosy over who their children get involved with on a romantic basis.