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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

giving a 15yo alcohol?

141 replies

user1494161156 · 20/06/2017 08:47

I hosted a big family gathering recently, and at dinner I gave my 15 year old niece one glass of white wine. An in-law was absolutely shocked by this and told me off after my niece had left. She basically said it amounted to child-abuse. My niece's parents weren't there and admittedly I didn't ask their permission to give her wine, but they are sensible people and I'm sure they wouldn't object.

I'm really astonished that anybody would think that giving a 15 year old a very small amount of alcohol, with food, while at home surrounded by older family members, was dangerous. I think it's much safer for kids to learn to drink sensibly and enjoy alcohol for the taste, rather than getting dangerously smashed on cheap vodka for the sake of it as soon as they turn 18.

AIBU?

OP posts:
mamalovesmojitos · 20/06/2017 15:05

YABU without the parents consent.

coconuttella · 20/06/2017 15:09

Comparing smoking to drinking is hardly the same... Smoking is universally recognised as damaging - there's no safe level like there is for drinking (I.e. no Government guidelines that say 5 cigs a day are fine similar to 14 alcoholic units per week) Drinking in moderation isn't seen as an issue by health professionals.

pudding21 · 20/06/2017 15:14

Did you ask your niece what her parents views were on it? Along the lines of "do you parents mind if you have a drink"? If you did and they do let her, I don't see an issue. If you didn't, you should have asked to get a sense of how they would feel. It obviously not the same but....in law, there is something called a Gillick competence, which means that some children may be deemed able to consent to medical treatment etc under the age of 16. If they are able to understand the risks and have capacity they might be able to consent or refuse treatment without parental consent. Just saying. A girl recently refused a lung transplant aged 15 against her parents wishes under this rule. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillick_competence.

Along side that it isn't illegal to drink aged 15 in a persons home.

Jesus, I was getting drunk frequently aged 15, outside the family home. I went to the pub and got served at 13. This is one glass of wine in the company of trusted adults. I turned out alright ;)

OP: did the parents react at all to your knowledge?

holeinmypocket · 20/06/2017 15:17

YABU, not your decision to make. If my family gave my kids alcohol I'd be upset.

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/06/2017 15:55

Comparing smoking to drinking is hardly the same

From my POV it is very similar. I see them both as social things that parents include their children in.

I know many of the parents my dds age and their dc fall into 2 categories. Those that are none drinkers because their parents don't drink and the others who had parents who demystified alcohol who neck bottles of vodka. There doesn't seem to be any in-between.

leonardthelemming · 20/06/2017 16:04

Comparing smoking to drinking is hardly the same

From my POV it is very similar. I see them both as social things that parents include their children in.

Both my parents were heavy smokers. I have never smoked. Neither of my (grown-up) children smoke.

Both my parents drank alcohol occasionally. I drink alcohol occasionally. Both my children drink alcohol occasionally.

Drinking alcohol and smoking are very different things, IMO.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 20/06/2017 16:08

It's very,very hard to strike a balance for teens imo. I've seen parents who are super strict then their kids go bonkers at the first sign of it when they're independent.

I don't drink, dh drinks very little. 3 very close relations to dh are alcoholics and 2 of mine.

Personally I don't want ds who is 16 to ever drin give the family history but that's not realistic.

Were going with the slow introduction of it and sensible drinking at parties only on a full stomach etc approach atm and keeping everything crossed.

endelessworries · 20/06/2017 16:16

Everyday there's posts here of miserable women complaining about the heavy drinking habits of theirs partners/husbands. Having s that were cultivated in their teens by offering a small glass of wine over dinner, and normalizes as teens will be teens. So ridiculous to try to normalise alcohol. This country as a drinking problem and no one seems to face it

endelessworries · 20/06/2017 16:18

And a lot of people here seem to have had a pretty disgusting time in theirs teens.

mummytime · 20/06/2017 16:39

Umm DH and I don't smoke - fortunately non of our children smoke either.
DH and I both drink (moderately/Occasionally), of our adult children one has chosen not to drink. The other isn't that bothered about drinking, but does so on occasion, and did experiment with drinking when younger. The youngest doesn't drink yet.

coconuttella · 20/06/2017 17:13

endelessworries

Pretty sure that serving the occasional a glass of wine during dinner to a 15 yo won't be the thing that turns them into an alcoholic! If you think forcing young people to abstain entirely until you can no longer control them will stop them turning into problem drinking you're very much mistaken- if anything the opposite!

nigelsbigface · 20/06/2017 17:25

Endeless worries-I hate to be the one to use the cliche but in France alchohol is 'normalised' from a young age and they don't have a national alcohol problem that I'm aware of?

leonardthelemming · 20/06/2017 18:04

Well I would have been fuming. It is not your decision to make whether this child should or shouldn't drink alcohol at 15. It is her parents decision she is still underage and a minor. You should have checked with her parents and if that was not possible not have given her any.

This is quite an interesting comment. In 1989 the concept of "parental responsibility" was introduced, to replace the previous system of parental rights.

This does not mean that parental rights were abolished, but rather that the emphasis changed to one of a parent's duties towards their child rather than their rights over them.

The incentive for this change, as I understand it, was the decision in the case of Victoria Gillick vs the West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority which also led to the concept of Gillick Competence, mentioned by other PPs. Although Gillick Competence refers specifically to medical decisions, the change to parental responsibility seems to have been intended to widen the scope of that decision, as in this statement by Lord Scarman:

The ruling holds particularly significant implications for the legal rights of minor children in England in that it is broader in scope than merely medical consent. It lays down that the authority of parents to make decisions for their minor children is not absolute, but diminishes with the child's evolving maturity. The result of Gillick is that in England today, except in situations that are regulated otherwise by law, the legal right to make a decision on any particular matter concerning the child shifts from the parent to the child when the child reaches sufficient maturity to be capable of making up his or her own mind on the matter requiring decision.

It is clear to me that the intention was to allow for the gradual transfer of the right to make decisions regarding a child (child in the legal sense) from the parent to the child. Bearing in mind that a young person can leave home and live independently from age sixteen, it would be reasonable to suppose that all parental rights should be transferred by this point, leaving parents with just the duties to provide for their child for the next two years - until they reach eighteen. In Scotland this is specifically stated - a parent may only advise their 16-year-old, not direct their behaviour. Justification for this could be that many of these rights are independently granted in law. For example, apart from the right to live independently, a 16-year-old has the right to obtain their own adult passport (without requiring parental consent), work full-time (provided they have reached the school-leaving age - which is actually not an age but a fixed date), make their own arrangements for KS5 education, etc. With these rights comes the liability to taxation.

Since the transfer of rights is supposed to be a gradual process, it would also be reasonable to expect most rights to have been transferred by age fifteen, and bearing in mind that drinking alcohol in a private house is not an illegal activity, then perhaps the decision to drink alcohol or not should be made by the girl, and not by her parents.

Sushi123 · 20/06/2017 18:28

I did! Ffs - happy times :)

HildaOg · 20/06/2017 18:33

Leonard; god help anyone who tries to use that argument when they attempt to give my future fifteen year old alcohol or drugs.

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/06/2017 18:43

Nigelsbigface
I think you will find France has a major alcohol problem

If you think forcing young people to abstain entirely until you can no longer control them will stop them turning into problem drinking

Or maybe forcing abstinence will stop them drinking all together.

Years ago drinking was done when you went out on a Saturday night . You didn't drink during the week. It wasn't unusual to not drink.

Now we seem to be drinking ourselves into oblivion. A lot of people I know drink every day.

Others drink once per week and start at home and end up in a complete state.

I know one mother who lost her front teeth because of an accident when she was drunk and one who will never walk again.

It cant end well.

coconuttella · 20/06/2017 18:48

HildaOg

Why is Leonard's argument so unreasonable that anyone using it would need to call upon the Almighty to save themselves from your wrath?!

And why are you conflating drink and drugs... one is illegal, the other is something 90%+ of adults partake in - the vast majority very responsibly.

I really don't understand this over-protectiveness that fully insulates a 15 year old from adulthood to the extent of even balking at the offer of a single glass of wine with a meal, and then expecting them to instantly develop maturity and ability to manage adult stuff competently when they come of age! No wonder so many young adults are so immature!

HildaOg · 20/06/2017 18:52

It's not any adults right to take it upon themselves to give alcohol to other peoples kids. And anyone comes near mine there'll be hell to pay because my kid is my responsibility and nobody will be giving her alcohol, drugs(lots of people think weed is fine...) , grooming her for sex while underage...

coconuttella · 20/06/2017 18:53

Or maybe forcing abstinence will stop them drinking all together.

Good luck with that approach Confused.

Like the vast majority of people in the U.K., I enjoy the odd drink.... and I mean the odd drink. I can't remember the last time I had more than two drinks. Reading this thread anyone would think we'd gone back to the 19th century and the forum had been taken over by the Temperance movement!

coconuttella · 20/06/2017 18:54

nobody will be giving her alcohol, drugs(lots of people think weed is fine...) , grooming her for sex while underage..

It's a bit of a leap to go from giving someone a glass of wine around a family dinner table and grooming for sex Confused

HildaOg · 20/06/2017 18:55

And bollocks to the notion that giving kids alcohol makes them mature drinkers... My parents introduced me to alcohol at thirteen and most of my friends were similar, we were all dangerously wild. Plus, every alcoholic I ever met started drinking very early.

Funnily enough none of the kids with abstinent parents had those issues.

CantGetNoSleeeeeeep · 20/06/2017 18:56

It would have bothered me a lot! Alcohol is a drug! Not your decision to make.

RainbowJack · 20/06/2017 19:14

She basically said it amounted to child-abuse.

I agree with her.

How can anyone possibly defend giving a child/teen whose brain hasn't even fully developed, a drug that negatively affects the brain. Boggles my mind.

Anyone defending it has either burned away their brain cells drinking in the park at 12 or is justifying their own attitudes on alcohol.

hamsterchump · 20/06/2017 20:01

The people saying "do they have to ever drink alcohol?" Of course they don't have to but you're incredibly naive if you think they likely never will. Does everyone remember first drinking? I'm not from a particularly "rough" area but definitely started drinking well before 15, as did everyone I know. I'd be shocked if it was really a 15 year old's first sip of alcohol. I expect my parents thought I "didn't like" alcohol too because what's the fun in drinking at home with your parents. Nothing like shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted.

leonardthelemming · 20/06/2017 20:34

How can anyone possibly defend giving a child/teen whose brain hasn't even fully developed, a drug that negatively affects the brain. Boggles my mind.

There have been a number of posts on a variety of threads about this "brain not being fully developed" idea, but the information seems to originate in newspaper articles rather than research papers. From what I've read - and I apologize for not being able to link just at present - even the researchers are unsure about the results but it doesn't seem as if the brain is "developing" at that age. In fact the opposite appears to be the case - neural connections get removed.

As I've pointed out on other threads, I'm not a biologist. I am, however, scientifically trained. As far as I'm aware nobody is sure what is going on, but a reasonable guess might be that the brain is becoming streamlined, so it becomes faster at what it's already good at but doesn't even bother with things it isn't. This would certainly be consistent with the difficulties many secondary school pupils have with languages or maths, whereas those who are already good at a particular subject just get better.

But this is just speculation. Despite this, I'm not at all convinced by the "brain not fully developed" argument.

Anyone defending it has either burned away their brain cells drinking in the park at 12 or is justifying their own attitudes on alcohol.

I pointed out upthread that I drink alcohol occasionally. So I suppose I am justifying my own attitude - encouragingly moderate drinking, occasionally.

And I wasn't drinking in the park at 12. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've never drunk alcohol in a park.

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