Aibu to be so angry with the tory government regarding grenfell

[GreenTreesWithLeaves]

Grenfell should not have happened. Austerity, cost cutting, ignoring the poor, helping the rich get richer, all this led to the horrific circumstances.

Tory response? Theresa May didnt even speak to the survivor residents. A tory minister cited security reasons, yet the Queen managed to come out and talk to the residents without issue.

Tories have form for voting against safety issues in housing. All to benefit the wealthy. It is utterly shameful that these are the people that run our country, who care only for the rich.

Tm did not give a shit about what was happening at grenfell until the public mood became apparent. It was business as usual until it could not be ignored any longer. Compare to Manchester where we were on critical alert and she still came to visit the victims, these victims are on her doorstep and it's not a terror attack but it was too much of a security risk to speak to them until after every other leader in England had done so.

People who are there are saying their council are doing nothing to help them. Tonnes of donations and no one to coordinate them. Traumatised people sleeping on floors or being homed in high rise hotels with no consideration of their mental health. The Red Cross coordinating things like it's some giant natural disaster or war zone.

How can you not be angry about what is happening right now! It's not an academic exercise ffs.

“It can’t be acceptable that in London we have luxury buildings and luxury flats left empty as land banking for the future while the homeless and the poor look for somewhere to live. We have to address these issues.”

Does that spell it out for you? How can it possibly be moral and humane for those left homeless and bereaved to be be completely displaced from anything that is familiar to them when there are residences left empty under those circumstances? If you are wealthy you have options. If you are poor, you have none. If you're a survivor of Grenfell Tower, you have NOTHING. No options, no possessions, no home. You've lost family, friends and let's not even talk about the PTSD and mental health issues that many are going to have to deal with after this or the long term health issues that some of the injured will have to live with. So when people simplify it to "Corbyn wants to rob from the rich and give to the poor" and separate it from the moral issue and the public care element, it infuriates me.

Further more, requisition and seize are two different words with two different meanings. Somehow people that are clutching their pearls at the idea of the wealthy having to find another way to hoard their money have forgotten that.

All parties and all of us are utterly appalled by the loss of life here. It is not a party political issue with one side laughing at the deaths. We are all completely horrified. I particularly had the idea the obedient people stayed for 2 hours or more put in their flats because they were being told to. Had they disobeyed that advice those on the upper floors may well be alive.

Secondly it has certainly reminded me of the importance of fire safety at home. I've checked our alarm. We had a fire blanket in the kitchen and extinguisher although I have not yet checked the extinguisher. Perhaps every tenants and property owners should get out and buy fire precautions this weekend.

The Conservatives and Labour both know there is a shortage of social housing at cheap rents all over the country, not just in London and that the housing benefit bill is extremely expensive. Neither party has solved the issue although this year's changes to landlords and interest tax relief and the new extra 3% stamp duty on second homes/buy to let is having a big big impact. Property prices are falling in London.

I don't think there was a shortage of fire fighters on the night of the fire. The biggest problem seems to have been that people thought each flat was a self contained fire proof place in case of fires and that has proved to be utterly wrong. Having one fire escape also seems bad in hindsight and we need to check if the fire proof thing that is supposed to go across at intervals between cladding and walls was in and finally one company that supplies metal sheeting, not plastic, says for years it has been trying to persuade people to buy that but has failed.

Sadly here had they not revamped the place and left it as it was it is possible people would be alive. So if you are wanting to make this party political it was an example of over spending and waste by Government which directly resulted in deaths. You could go back to the old saying - if in doubt, do now't and if it ain't broke don't fix it. Utter waste of £10m just to make it look fancy from the outside. Spent £10m on buying properties near where my son bought - house £325k end of a tube line. You could have bought 30 2 bed terraced house homes for that with 4 beds in each that's 120 people housed. My local London council is buying homes currently (we have more beds in sheds than any other local authority in the country).

the silent majority will look on

That's it isn't it? Standing there looking on.

She is trying to do the sensible supportive thing and ranting and raving does not help

Yes the hysteria is awful isn't it, anyone would think people had died.

People who had calmly brought their concerns to the appropriate authorities, only to be waved off and threaten.

Authorities that spent more money on the outside for the overall look of the place. Then making sure that those people did not live in a fire trap.

Authorities that were not on the ground co-ordernating everyone after.

But where able to write and hand deliver a letter threatening legal action against residents because children had played with balls

It's shocking how angry people are isn't it?

anotherone, let's not argue about semantics or political ideology; can't we just agree that the polarisation in society has gone to far and we need to create a little more equality and pull together to support all our citizens. And those in need will use a bit more of our resource than those who are not.

No, it does not spell it out for me. Right to personal property is fundamental to a civil society. Even Jeremy Corbyn would not deny that. It is not morally wrong for that right to be extended to so called wealthy people.

I fail to see how these houses would be requisitioned in a matter of hours or days to provide accommodation for the people of Grenfell tower. They would have had to be seized.

That fundamental part of our society (even in developing countries) is there to protect the poorer people of our society. Undermine it, and it is the poor that will eventually suffer.

I don't need a book on ideology to tell me what is right, thanks

Can you please explain this polarisation in society? I genuinely do not understand what is meant by rich vs poor. Who is rich and who is poor? Do you draw the line as Labour did at £80k?

We have a lot of social issues in this country but I would not classify them as rich vs poor. For instance, a lot of young people earning over £80k cannot get on the property ladder and are funding the care of people who are sitting on substantial equity.

Can you please explain this polarisation in society? I genuinely do not understand what is meant by rich vs poor

It's not up to people on this thread to relieve your ignorance.

Maybe go educate yourself. Then come back.

Let others get on with discussing, the ins and outs of the events leading up to and after this awful event.

Makeour, standing there looking on because their views do not matter. They are shouted down, accused of not having empathy, of being morally defunct, etc. The silent majority will express their sorrow and will contribute but will choose not to do so in a public way.

Do you assume that the silent majority are not helping in diverse ways to support the people of Grenfell?

We are looking on with utter sadness at how this tragedy has being politicised and how Theresa May is being shamefully bullied.

Right to personal property is fundamental to a civil society.

Unless your poor, obviously.

The poor will suffer? How ironic. They are suffering. They've been suffering. All because we've allowed the magical so called Civil Society to serve the rich and ignore the poor.

Please don't understand me, I'm not on some fuck the rich crusade. It's just clear to me that society has allowed things to happen that continue to widen the gap between the haves and the have nots to a level that is not only alarming, it is downright dangerous.

It's ok for the poor to be inconvenienced to the point where their lives are endangered and/or lost but it's not ok for the rich to be inconvenienced to the point where they're expected to exercise their privilege and use alternative means to harbour their wealth. How can that be right?

The Witch, you are funny. I'll say no more to you.

You're*

Has anyone got any information on whether there are any other tower blocks in the UK with this sort of cladding?

anotherone; like she said - educate yourself. Inequality in this country is well documented.

Then I'm honoured

Thank you another for generously excusing me from your presence.

another Plenty of countries have laws surrounding owning more than one property or owning property you are not using. Yes, civil societies. I live in Korea, and owning more than one property here is not that easy, the taxes are huge and it is hard to get a second mortgage. It means that people can't just buy property as an investment and that most people have a fair chance of being able to buy a house at some point in their lives.

Free market economics goes way too far in the UK in my opinion. Just because we have the right to buy things doesn't mean we should, so at some point, if people are not taking any social responsibility, the government needs to play a part and restrict what people can buy. We can see that it's becoming harder and harder for people to buy or even rent in London - that is not a normal situation, for families with two working parents to be unable to afford even a basic house in our capital city. That is not how most countries are. So at this point, I really think the government needs to step in and make laws regarding homes you aren't using, buying extra properties and so on.

I don't want to live in the sort of country where the rich can just buy up whatever they feel like while the poor can't buy even a basic property. That doesn't feel like freedom to me. It doesn't feel like it's 'fair' however much people say 'it's their money so they can do as they please.' Perhaps it is their money, but it is creating a huge social divide and a cohesive society is more appealing to me than a completely free market.

I understand that others may feel differently and I respect that. But it is not how I want to live.

With you 110% BigYellowJumper. It's not how I want to live either.

bigyellow, thanks for illuminating so clearly.

Earning over 80k and not being able to get on property ladder is NOT poverty.

Its overpriced housing

There's nothing morally superior about standing back and saying nothing. And assuming everyone who stands back and says nothing is quietly donating billions to good causes is complete bollocks.

Poor Teresa bloody May. I save my sympathy for the mother who lost her five year olds hand in the dark, smoke filled fire escape.

So I'm guessing this should extend to areas outside of London. No second homes or buy to lets. London isn't the only place with housing problems.

fizbo who said it should just be about London? Or that it was the only place with housing problems?

That's quite a big policy then. We differ to other countries, not everything is easy to replicate. Not sure we'd be that popular with investors post Brexit many of whom will pay taxes that help us a fair bit.