To think Labour should save their political point scoring re Granffell tower for later on

[angelcakerocks]

I'm actually quite disgusted that Labour are yet again using a tragedy to score political points (as they did with the terrorist incident) so soon after the event.
Yes questions need to be asked, but it seems inappropriate to be doing that right now, when we should all be pulling together and focusing on the victims of this awful accident. There is no need for the political point scoring today.

clueless the current Mayor has been in post for a matter of months, and Labour remained in government for less than a year after the Lakanal House fire.

I think people also need to realise that not just social housing is affected.

My DH used to deliver shopping for Ocado. He once delivered to a very upmarket new development in Canary Wharf. It had inch wide gaps under the fire doors and they didn't close properly.

Costs aren't just cut in social housing, although cash-strapped councils are probably forced to cut costs more than most.

What I'm trying to say is: if you live in any sort of apartment block, don't be complacent about safety.

Totally agree op

I live near here ( and not in Notting Hill or Holland Park before people attack me as living in a bubble).

Neither Labour or Conservative governments have grasped the nettle here and given funding to take old tower blocks down everywhere and replace them with low rise family friendly housing.

There are old, disabled and very young children living in these blocks and we all now know beyond doubt that they will not make it out in the event of the fire.

The fire service was there within 6 minutes, so, cuts or not, it can't be criticised for a slow response. The fire crew have been heroes.

This type of cladding is a modern fad, is used all over the world and on housing for the rich and the poor. I doubt it will be so popular now.

I am not judging any political party at the moment. I don't think anyone realised the consequences of fixing that sort of cladding and insulation to the exterior of the building.

I also don't believe for one moment that everyone concerned was thinking fuck the poor, let's make it unsafe but pretty and it doesn't matter. Out of pure self interest, no one would do that.

I will judge the Government if it doesn't provide immediate funding to remove the cladding from all other blocks which are similarly clad and make those blocks as fire safe as possible until they can be permanently replaced.

No-one's making this political, it IS political.

Personally, I think this is a political issue not a party political issue. From what I've seen the Right Wing press including the Mail and the Telegraph are reporting this as a scandal too - because it is. Everyone on all sides of the house should be outraged and baying for answers.

But seeing as many people on this thread are determined to make it party political these are some facts:

The recommendations following the Southwark (Lakanal House) fire were published in 2013. Labour were no longer in power by the time the report came out - although they were when the fire happened in 2009. The minister who sat on that report has been rejected by the electorate (he just lost his seat). But the Prime Minister has just made him her Chief of Staff. Personally, I think he should resign from that post until an inquiry into how and why this happened has been completed.

Grenfell House was refurb'd last year, by a Tory council and their contractors, and did not include measures recommended after Lakanal House. The Mayor of London - and the govt at that time were also Tories.

The only MPs who voted against the bill tabled by Jeremy Corbyn to raise standards in social housing were Tories. If my MP was amongst them, I would be contacting them immediately to ask why they took that decision and whether they would support similar measures going forward.

This isn't point scoring or Tory bashing - those are facts. I think the whole political class needs to look closely at social housing, at how we talk about council tenants, at the profits being made on London flats. And I also think they - and we - need to absolutely stop talking about Health and Safety regulations and red tape as though they are dirty words. H&S may sometimes be inconvenient and may sometimes dent profits but in this case stronger regulation could have saved lives.

Sorry for the long post - I just honestly, honestly do not understand how anyone on either left or the right can not see this as political.

categoric but where are you going to build low-rise housing to house hundreds of people per block? We are already living with urban sprawl and building all over our green space.

In my opinion, tower blocks can be perfectly safe as long as proper precautions are taken eg fire doors, using fireproof materials, concrete between floors to stop spread, working smoke and fire alarms, more than one route out, sprinklers etc. If that fire had been contained to one flat, we wouldn't even be discussing this today, but fire ARE contained to one flat every day.

As the population grows, I can't see that we can do much else except build upwards. And there's nothing wrong with that if it is done safely.

I think it's an excellent time to point score. No-one wants to hear about housing standards and boring regulations most of the time. After people have died is the best time to link bad regulation, shoddy construction and corner-cutting in social housing to death, injury and destruction.

The only ones who benefit from "respectful" non-campaigning after a tragedy like this are the people and the systems and the laws responsible. The best way to respect the people who have been killed, injured or made homeless by this fire is to make their losses mean something, and to save others in the future.

Just in case anyone thinks I'm blinded by party politics, I'd expect any Opposition to raise questions, even if it damned people in their own party.

pluck that is so well put.

I might have been disposed to agree with the op if there hadn't been residents saying the same things well before Corbyn spoke. Are you going to tell me they were political point scoring too?

I suppose what my point was more was that the absolute horror and devastation about this terrible tragedy crosses all classes and politics and the entire community, which is quite mixed in that part of London, wants to pull together and help those affected. Also the fire service was heroic as again we all agree on.
It's important to remember that everyone cares about what happened here and Is devastated and thinks its a priority to ensure it never happens again. It is appalling and awful.
What I worry about is stirring up division of rich -v-poor or whatever in a situation like this when we should be pulling together. Of course questions need to be asked later, of course public service cuts are dreadful and so on. I already said I wasn't a Tory FWIW.
Yes we do need to work out who's responsible. But equally I think everyone is horrified and upset what happened, that's the main thing I wanted to put across, I don't think its the time yet to say for sure who's to blame until we know what happened and why.
I agree though floisme if the residents brought it up now then that's obviously fair enough. I just want people to remember that everybody is upset by this tragedy and wants it never to happen again.

I am not a fan of high rise housing simply because living there can be so hard. My great aunt lived in one for many years and we took turns as a family to stayover to look after her whenever she was ill. She was profoundly deaf so particularly vulnerable.

And the residents of Grenfell Tower were calling for it to be pulled down themselves four years ago.

When the lifts keep breaking down and you live high up, it can be pretty miserable.

There are lots of brownfield sites in London which could be used for social housing, it just costs money. The Westfield site would have been perfect for a new housing estate.

There is no need for shiny new shopping centres in London, there are existing shopping areas that could be given imaginative revamps (if we have to have new shopping developments) to save taking up additional land which could be used for housing.

I don't know enough about other parts of the country but there is plenty of scope for redevelopment in London and lots of development going on, usually just not of the right sort.

I think anger is a reasonable & respectful reaction. Seeing the photos of the missing, overwhelmingly people of colour & the very poor and reading the residents association blog from 7 months ago that predicted a major tragedy because the council wouldnt listen its almost disrespectful not to be angry. My tears can't help them but public outrage can help those left behind.

Its not about cuts. Its about the refusal to bring in legislation to make housing fit for human habitation. Its about residents terrified for their lives, being ignored and tragically being proven right.

And surely everyone knows Labour under the current leadership is not the Labour that held power 7 years ago?

I think op if you lived in one of the nearby tower blocks with the same landlord and same safety concerns, and had to tuck your kids in to bed tonight knowing that, you would not want a second more to be wasted on 'thoughts and prayers'. I'm a landlord and fully support JCs bill to ensure homes are fit for human habitation. That is the very least tenants can expect and it sickens me that it was voted down because people put profit over social decency.

Because it is a political issue. How the government and council behaved is shocking.

I haven't RYFT just the Op, so I don't know all the points made. IMHO mistakes have been made by governments and councils of both parties. As I said in another thread concerns were raised in 2009 and 1999 but not acted upon, which obviously was during the Labour years. We have also learned a report regarding fire safety was 'sat on' by TM's new chief of staff. Austerity has been blamed for the failure to install sprinklers etc yet the 'cash strapped' council found £10 million to spend on the outside of the building so it seems they had money just the wrong priorities. Council cuts have also been blamed for the lack on council staff present yesterday. Imho this is bollocks. Every member of the council's housing, social services and children's services should have left whatever they were doing yesterday and pulled up their sleeves to help. It's fucking bad leadership, incompetent and and disregard for those people that is the reason for the appalling response yesterday. The chairman of the management committee wasn't even there yesterday morning. She was caught walking her dog by the press. That's incomprehensible.

I'm glad they now have an MP who has campaigned on these issues for a long time and hopefully will be able to put pressure on to make sure that they are rehoused in good quality housing locally:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/unforgivable-local-labour-mp-vents-fury-over-grenfell-tower-fire

No-one's making this political, it IS political.
Corbyn's trying to point score against May though now - saying that she only did a private visit meeting the firefighters (without journalists) while he went with journalists to hug some people on camera at a church. That's just wrong. If I was in that situation the last thing I'd want is some bloody politician trying to look good by hugging me (and the same goes for pop stars who've also turned up). I'd want someone finding out what went wrong & taking action. After all, there are several more blocks with the same external cladding....

Just saw this on FB...

TM clearly knows the emergency services have more important things to do than pose for the cameras with her. She did the same in Manchester. That's the right thing. However from the point of view of her personal PR, it's probably a mistake when you've got JC getting his face on the national news and looking like he cares more.

Council cuts have also been blamed for the lack on council staff present yesterday. Imho this is bollocks.

This is probably not bollocks.
I work very closely with these departments and they are cut to the bone.
A lot of services now consist of on line advice, or no longer exist at all.

The council still have their other work to do, helping people in critical situations every day. Having to do more and more with less and less.

Council do not hav

Oops
Council do not have the resource to do outreach to see who needs help.
40+ families have been accommodated it was reported?

If I was in that situation the last thing I'd want is some bloody politician trying to look good by hugging me ... I'd want someone finding out what went wrong & taking action. After all, there are several more blocks with the same external cladding

Corbyn is currently at the Ministerial briefing for MPs about the Grenfell Tower fire. He went to visit local residents and volunteers before going to this briefing not to pose for pictures, but so that he could listen to them and represent them at the meeting. That's what he does. He makes a point that he leads by listening. If I was one of the locals, damn right this is what I would want, especially after this horrific incident came about after resident's repeated pleas for someone to listen to their concerns about fire safety were ignored.

Corbyn was reported as saying at the briefing that:

"residents are very angry that they raised concerns which were ignored, for example about alarms and about sprinklers.

There are thousands of tower blocks, and hundreds of thousands of people living in them. Every single one of those people will today be frightened and traumatised.

He welcomes the fact the inquiry is taking place, but says the residents must get help to ensure they are legally represented.

And he says residents should not be shipped out to seaside towns."

I haven't heard TM speaking yet about other people in tower blocks - although hopefully she will catch up at some point and recognise that there must be thousands in similar buildings scared for their family's safety now.

Council cuts have also been blamed for the lack on council staff present yesterday. Imho this is bollocks.

Do you think cuts don't affect anything?

A fire crew was there within 6 minutes. Not all the required response. It takes a lot more than 6 mins to get there from Surrey or Essex. This has to be looked at. They all worked beyond their own safety is too long too many times into the building

If another incident had happened the same night?