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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

OP posts:
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33
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/06/2017 16:53

Speaking of war rooms...

Alex Seitz-Wald @aseitzwald
Guessing Trump's war room would find more recruits if he promised to cover staff legal bills. Clinton did this in 96, was not a billionaire.

Alex Seitz-Wald @aseitzwald
Clinton WH aides racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars in personal legal bills. White collar defense not cheap. t.co/FgfRpdY4bU?amp=1

Lweji · 06/06/2017 16:55

Can people sue officials (say, Pruitt) or Trump personally for endangering people by not regulating against pesticide use? That would be great.

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 06/06/2017 16:58

Can I ask about something I'm struggling to formulate the right questions on?

Free speech.

This is in today's news:
Harvard bars students for posting 'obscene memes'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40170652
"'Obscene' memes posted on a private Facebook page have cost 10 students their place at Harvard, reports the college's newspaper. The students posted messages joking about child abuse, sexual assault, paedophilia and the Holocaust. Members of the group also directed several racial slurs at minorities, said the report. Free speech advocates criticised Harvard's actions saying the punishment was 'draconian'."

Meanwhile on current MN threads (and doubtless elsewhere), there are posters advocating imprisonment without trail for people who haven't broken the law but whose speech expresses, to paraphrase, "violent hatred for our values". No prizes for guessing the genre of hatred to be dealt with like this.

How on earth do we navigate this issue?

cozietoesie · 06/06/2017 17:01

I just don't know, Lweji. I suspect not. (They'd be covered by some form of 'executive privilege', I reckon.)

cozietoesie · 06/06/2017 17:15

I'm sure that Mr Schneiderman and the other AGs know the score very well, though. Wink

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 06/06/2017 17:17

Peking - I think the right to free speech is widely misunderstood. It is the right to be able to say things without imprisonment by your government for having said them (hence what is wrong with the posters on the draconian "lock 'em up on the basis of a single tweet" brigade).

It's not the right to say anything you like without having to face other people criticising your views (which may take the form of reasoned argument, or may take the form of someone saying something equally offensive in return - e.g. "saying XYZ makes you just like (insert Godwin of your choice)"). Nor is it the right to say anything you like without having to face consequences. If I say, under my real name, in a public forum like this one, "my employer is crap and does a rubbish job, and has cut corners on ABC", I can expect to lose my job as a result.

Harvard, as I understand it, is saying "we expect certain standards from our students, and if they won't meet those standards, we no longer want them as students." Where it becomes difficult in this instance is the potential clash with academic freedom. You want to be able to rule out, for example, simple straightforward racism targeting one group without banning, say, an analysis of certain religious beliefs and how they play into political and social consequences. (And a lot of the more intelligent people on the Alt Right are very adept at dressing straightforward racism up as pseudo intellectual discussion so it's extremely hard to police this boundary. Conversely, there are undoubtedly some on the far left who use "safe spaces" to shut down discussion and prevent things being discussed openly and honestly. Hence I think the worries of the law dean at Harvard - if the dividing line is to some extent arbitrary, it may be better to have a blanket "anything goes" policy - even if, in this case, it sounds like the students in question were just being little shits for the sake of it.).

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/06/2017 17:18

Shareblue @Shareblue
IF true, WOW:

  1. Could be considered a form of witness intimidation (defer to lawyers);
  2. IF really DT and NOT staff, then 🎉🎉🎉!

Thread:

Sybill Trelawney @SybilT2
OMG, Bob Costa reports that in lieu of "war room," Trump intends to be "his own messenger" and will tweet WHILE Comey testifies. /1

Marc Kasowitz (and any other lawyers Trump has managed to sign in) must be pulling their hair out. ANYTHING Trump tweets about Comey >> /2

is admissible EVIDENCE in a grand jury, impeachment trial or court proceedings. It's nuts. Seriously nuts. He really is unhinged. /3

FantasticButtocks · 06/06/2017 17:18

Covfefe! WineGrin

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/06/2017 17:27

www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/kids-are-quoting-trump-to-bully-their-classmates?utm_term=.ag0KDv7zQ#.lanaJXrjn

This bit was sobering:

The first school year of the Donald Trump presidency left educators struggling to navigate a climate where misogyny, religious intolerance, name-calling, and racial exclusion have become part of mainstream political speech.

These budding political beliefs among some students carry consequences beyond the schoolyard. Today’s high schoolers will be eligible to vote in 2020, and today’s fifth-graders will be eligible to vote in 2024. But even if the wave of Trump-related bullying doesn’t reflect some widespread political awakening among young people, it indicates a more troubling reality: the extent to which racial and religious intolerance has shaped how kids talk, joke, and bully.

Lweji · 06/06/2017 17:32

I suspect those children would be racist and bullies anyway. They just use Trump's words instead of their own.

OTOH, Trump suits my 12 year old sense of humour. He does a mean "sad" and "a small loan of 1 million dollars". Grin

Hopefully many more kids will be repulsed by Trump and GOP's politics and become more politically aware and active than previous generations.

OP posts:
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/06/2017 17:35

Yes I suppose there are lots more who would refuse to have their photo taken with Paul Ryan Grin

PerkingFaintly · 06/06/2017 17:35

I agree, Hedgehog.

The Harvard case is just today's example.

I've been interested (well, that's one way to put it) to see the "alt right" shouting very loudly about absolute free speech for themselves, while notably failing to grapple with the same concept for anyone else.

As news broke of the recent white supremacist murderer in Portland, one comment under an article said in rather ruder words, "The killer was exercising his First Amendment rights in shouting at the young women, and was defending those rights in killing the men who asked him to stop."

The poster was clearly a racist numpty - but I was still struck by their utter inability to grasp that everyone else had First Amendment rights too. When others exercised their right to free speech - with their opinion of him - he killed them.

PerkingFaintly · 06/06/2017 17:41

Sorry, I don't want to disrupt the Trump talk.

But I would love to hear what the extreme free speech advocates would say to the people advocating restriction of Islamist-extremist speech.

I suspect there are people who fall in both groups...

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 06/06/2017 17:46

That's true, Peking. Who gets to exert their first amendment rights and who gets silenced is an interesting exercise in seeing where the real political power in society lies. I remember being struck by a comment of Catherine McKinnon's re. feminist protests against the publication of American Psycho. She pointed to a stark disconnect between Brett Easton Ellis defending his work on first amendment grounds while feminist protestors (who were simply standing outside a bookshop reading aloud from the text to draw attention to how horrible it was) were arrested by mall police for breach of the peace or whatever the US equivalent is.

(Incidentally, vile as I find this sort of torture porn, I don't think banning the written word is the way to go. But having written and published the words, you ought to have the guts to cope with criticism of them.)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/06/2017 17:55

I don't think you're disrupting at all perking, I'm just lacking the ability to do anything more challenging than copying and pasting at the moment! Finding it interesting to read though

AcrossthePond55 · 06/06/2017 17:56

Can people sue officials (say, Pruitt) or Trump personally for endangering people by not regulating against pesticide use?

Generally speaking no, if it's in the performance of your official duties. I was threatened with being sued more often than I can count in the performance of mine, it was sort of par for the course in my duties.

A person would sue either the relative department (XX vs Dept of Agriculture), the head of the agency in their official capacity (XX vs the Sec'ty of Dept of Agriculture) or the US Govt (XX vs the USA). The thing that's 'fun' about that sort of thing is that the US Govt makes the determination of whether or not you can sue them. You submit your lawsuit and the DOJ can say 'Nah, that's not valid, computer says NO, buh-bye'. Then you have to fight that through the courts for the right to fight your suit through the courts.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 06/06/2017 17:57

Placemarking. Dinner comes first...

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/06/2017 18:00

Judd Legum @JuddLegum
Can't wait until this becomes the subject of a tweet rant

Is justice Comey for Trump?
GingerIvy · 06/06/2017 18:00

The Times of London‏Verified account @thetimes 2m2 minutes ago
More
Theresa May is blind to the threat of extremism, writes @RSylvesterTimes thetim.es/2scB0eY

GingerIvy · 06/06/2017 18:02

This just boggles the mind.....

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump
Follow
More
Sorry folks, but if I would have relied on the Fake News of CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, washpost or nytimes, I would have had ZERO chance winning WH

5:15 AM - 6 Jun 2017

cozietoesie · 06/06/2017 18:09

Thanks, Across. Some definition of 'fun' you have there. Grin

GingerIvy · 06/06/2017 18:14

Ada Colau‏Verified account
@AdaColau
Mayor of Barcelona
Follow
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Ada Colau Retweeted Donald J. Trump
The attack on the Mayor of London by Trump is unacceptable and only serves to divide and spread panic. @SadiqKhan has Barcelona's support

Owen Jones‏Verified account @OwenJones84 2m2 minutes ago
More
Owen Jones Retweeted Ada Colau
The Mayor of Barcelona is willing to make the sort of statement that our own Prime Minister is to weak to issue.

Lweji · 06/06/2017 18:14

Thanks for the clarification, Across.

Although, couldn't it be considered a crime against the people if officials fail to ensure safety?
Just digressing.

OP posts:
Gumpendorf · 06/06/2017 18:17

Thanks for the new thread. I suspect we will have another one before the week is out. Apparently Trump dining with Rubio and Cotton tonight -both are on the intelligence committee on Thursday. I suspect the hearing will be two sided - Republicans going after leaks and Clinton and Democrats focusing on Trump and Russia. It's reported that Comey testifying because he wants his story heard so he won't be a reluctant witness.

Also there is a report that Trump will live tweet the event Shock
@SybilT2. Sybil Trelawney
OMG, Bob Costa reports that in lieu of "war room," Trump intends to be "his own messenger" and will tweet WHILE Comey testifies. /1*
Marc Kasowitz (and any other lawyers Trump has managed to sign in) must be pulling their hair out. ANYTHING Trump tweets about Comey >> /2

is admissible EVIDENCE in a grand jury, impeachment trial or court proceedings. It's nuts. Seriously nuts. He really is unhinged. /3*

It sounds a real popcorn event - unfortunately I'll miss it because of a long standing trip. Confused

GingerIvy · 06/06/2017 18:17

An amazingly interesting thread on Twitter. Definitely one to read. But scary as hell.

Jeremy Konyndyk‏ @JeremyKonyndyk
Aid wonk at @cgdev. Adjunct at @Georgetownsfs. Former US Foreign Disaster Assistance chief (@theOFDA)
Feb 17
Lot of speculation these days about how #Trump Admin will manage a REAL crisis, given its high level of baseline chaos. Let's dive in. 1/

Swipe left for the next trending thread