Big row between DH and my DM. AIBU or is he?

[Stuckbetweenrockandpita]

Namechanged as this may out me to friends. Will try and keep this short but not end up dripfeeding!

Background is my mum is a bit of a PITA. Narc tendancies definitely - she's pretty self-absorbed, super defensive when criticised, thinks she is right and everyone else is wrong etc etc. But she's not THAT bad, certainly not as bad as some of the descriptions of narcs I have read on here. I didn't get on well with her as a teen but nowadays we get on fine - speak at least once a week and she is generally supportive and a decent listener. Sometimes she is judgemental and I can't tell her everything, e.g. she is v critical of anyone on anti-ds, so I never discuss things like that. But I do talk to her more often than friends. She is my mum after all and a mum will always care more about little things than friends will.

She loves my 2 DDs and they love seeing her too. However she is not exactly brilliant with them. She's not great at playing, tires easily and after a while they always end up in front of the TV. She also clearly favours DD1 - not to the extent she doesn't love DD2, but DD2 does end up being told off more often (despite the fact DD1 is much more challenging! so it's not about good behaviour), and for example while out with both of them may say things like "DD1, look at that swan!". DD2 is only 3 and doesn't seem to have noticed yet, but she will.

Long story short, DH has put up with her for 13 years, but on a recent holiday they had a barney. It was over something minor, but was clearly his pent up frustration about her having to be right about everything. Since then, she has ignored it and has indicated she will pretend it never happened. DH however has decided he doesn't want to see her again, and ideally doesn't want the DDs to either. Of course he won't tell her that though, so it would be up to me to tell her and deal with the consequences (which we all know will be a narcisstic rage). Plus she'd be understandably upset if we took away contact with her only DGCs.

I have considered NC before, but decided against it, partly because our relationship isn't all bad and on balance I feel it is positive. That, and I don't want to destroy relationship with my DF. Or my DDs relationship with their DGPs. My gran clearly favoured a cousin of mine, and also wasn't the easiest woman, but I'm still glad that I had her in my life, so I'm not convinced that stopping contact is the best thing for the girls either.

Any advice? I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing. After all MIL is no picnic but I put up with her! Is DH being U or even childish for refusing to see his MIL, and by assuming there will be no fallout, or more likely just leaving me to deal with it? Or AIBU for forcing him to see someone he really dislikes, or forcing him to have the confrontation himself?

Either way I feel like it will be horrible. DM is pretty blind to these things and doesn't seem to have noticed he is avoiding her, but DF has and has been asking me about it. It's going to start being obvious soon and I don't know what to do... TIA

Solidarity appears to be a one way street with you, he's supposed to 'have your back' being your buffer but when he decides enough is enough, instead of you having his back it's all 'what about me'? Where were you 'having his back' when she was making snidey remarks about his diet?

Given your level of FOG, I would be be very uneasy about your capability of protecting your children from the worst of your mother's characteristics.

You can't have it both ways, you complain that your DH is leaving you to deal with the fallout of his decision but if he were to confront your mother himself, you wouldn't like it either because there would be blow back on you.

Don't make the same mistake as your Dad and instead of protecting you from the worst of her behaviour, he chose to enable it. Your DH isn't you and 'sucking it up' no longer works for him and you can either have his back by respecting his decision or, you can not have his back by focusing on your needs alone.

In terms of holidays and occasions I think what I would do is as follows

Xmas day with DH and your DC - you take DC to DM for a few days after Xmas or whenever is suitable

Holidays - again I am sorry but if she is generally quite difficult I think expecting your DH to spend a full week of what is also his (presumably limited) holiday time with her is unreasonable - again suggest DM goes on hols to wherever she wishes you and DC join her for a few days or a week or whatever you prefer

Birthdays - you could try and invite/attend something more sociable eg she gets invite to DC party where other people are present so less emphasis on her ditto you suggest something more social including other people for her birthday. Or you make birthday visits on your own and have her to you immediately before or after DC birthday

Sadly if she is like my MIL she is completely self obsessed and if your DH has tried over a long period of time to do his best and she cannot or will not improve or be respectful the price she will have to pay is less or at least different involvement in your family life -

Op - what did you do when your mother was making the endless snidey comments to your husband?

Did you have his back? Did you make it clear each and every time that such a comment was inappropriate and that nobody gets to speak to the man you choose like that and still have you in their life.

Or did you do nothing and expect him to put up with it. (And then complained that he was "immature" when he finally realised that his wife wasn't going to say a word whilst he was abused and so he stood up for himself.)

If the first then yes - you have his back, he should have yours - the two of you need to work out what is best together.

If the second - well - you don't have his back, why should he have yours.

What will you do when the snidey snidey start being directed at your lovely innocent dd2? Because they will.

(Am the grandchild of toxic grandparents. Due to my parents excellent boundaries am pretty much in damaged by them. Some of my cousins were not so lucky.)

Thanks zebra. Has your DH explained your feelings to her? If so how did she react? Or does he just make excuses for you each time you are not present? How did you get out of them joining you on holiday?

When it all blew up I told her that I was out and i needed some distance from her. Our relationship would not be the same. DH was supportive and he confirmed my feelings however he also told her he would not go NC but he needed a different relationship with PIL. She blew up. Angry, emotional. We/I was accused of destroying 'her' family. All sorts was said. It was a very emotionally and mentally exhausting time however DH and I are happier now. We don't have the drama anymore. We don't have the tension between us because of MIL anymore. Life is so much simpler but we still have to stay strong because she wants a different relationship to us.

DH doesn't need to make excuses for me not seeing them because she knows I won't be there. I speak to her when/if needed and I am not off or rude but she knows that's as far as our relationship will ever go now. I didn't get out of going on holiday with them. It's DH, DD and my holiday and we normally invite them to come for a few days. They won't be invited. It will all blow up again I suspect but we will have to deal with it.

You have two options Op. Carry on as you are or do something about it. Doing something about it is not the easy option but it's worth the shot term emotional stress for long term happiness. As things stand you and your DH don't sound happy. Is this how you want to live the rest of life?

Just to add about being the grandchild of the toxic grandparents.

My grandparents were toxic. They were both parented badly themselves from what my mum knows about their childhoods. I suspect you could go back many generations and find endless examples of abuse, neglect and toxicity in my family tree.

My mum was a good mum. She broke the cycle. By braking the cycle herself and by protecting me and my brother from our grandparents we are now both (relatively - it's all relative!) healthy individuals who are making at least a decent stab at parenting our own children. Hopefully in the future my children and my do will also be able to be good parents.

The future of my family tree is different to the past of my family tree because one person (my mum) managed to break the cycle. That is really rather amazing of her.

The list there of the time your dm expects you to spend with her is basically all your holiday time and special occasions. I have a narc mother, I am low contact now but in the past when I saw her more there is no way I would have expected dh to spend all that time with her.

It's very unfair on the family and I think you really need to ask yourself who do you mind upsetting most ? Your dh or your mum ?

I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering whether OP stood up for her DH when the mum was making comments to him. OP said it took place over the weekend, so I suspect OP didn't tell her mum to stop it.

If this was a narc MIL thread, the OP would be told she has a DH problem and that she can go no contact and put boundaries in place to protect the children.

You still seem to be taking it for granted that your DM's wants come before DH

• Dh - your children's father - has to suck it up and have father's day on a different day as DM takes priority - why can't a grown women have her birthday on a different day?
• why would you still be planning to spend Christmas and holidays with them?
• did you make it clear to DM that sniping at DH was unacceptable - or did you stand back and say nothing and let DH feel unsupported?

You seem to be so scared of saying no to your DM - but are happy to exclude your DH when he doesn't want to be picked at all the time.

Your DH is telling you that he is unhappy - yet you are planning how you can ride roughshod over DH - even contemplating leaving him at home for Christmas and holidays rather than say no to DM. The risk is that you will cease to be a family if you are not prepared to set boundaries around holidays - you may be risking your marriage

I think you're deep in FOG if you think that the fact that she's your mother outweighs the negative effects of treating your daughters differently. Abused kids/grandkids love their grand/parents because human young are biologically programmed to love their elders. Scapegoat/golden child dynamic will harm the sibling relationship as well as the girls' individual self-esteem. 😢

Narcs and abusers are often popular with non-family members because they actually know how to behave like a civilized person in real life or they find people who are easily manipulated and put up with their shit.

I think your h is perfectly reasonable to say that he wants to be NC with your mum and would ideally like the girls to be too. If they haven't already, it's a matter of time before they'll be following your lead and doing what she wants so she doesn't rage. 😢 He's put up with many years of this so the idea that he should suck it up more is unfair. I don't understand why you think that there needs to be a whole-family solution to this. You and your h are both adults with personal opinions and different 'types' that you get along with. Just because he goes NC, you don't have to go NC as well.

I hope you stood up to your mum when she took the piss out of your h's diet. He shouldn't have to put up with that kind of behaviour from an adult. You know that there are going to be tantrums so don't act until you've got everything in order practically and mentally.

OP I just wanted to reiterate what crazed said in the previous post.

Although I am now in the position of dealing with a narc mother, I was also in the position your DC were when I was a child. My M's father was very much 'in control' of our family and our plans, in a similar way that it sounds your M is with yours - ie you do what they want because the alternative causes too much trouble. My M always took her father's side and spent (what should have been) family occasions with her F, taking me and my sibling along with her. Over the years my dad got more and more pissed off with it and refused to join in. This eventually meant much of my childhood 'family time' was spent with my mother and her father, with my own father taking a back seat and leading quite a solitary existence. As a result my mother and father had a v damaged relationship - in short my M put him last and he was miserable a lot of the time (not surprisingly).

My father died and my grandfather (my mum's father) died soon after. My M has now taken on the role of the family narc with full force - you just do not argue with what she wants because the fallout is too great. Well actually, I did argue and I no longer see her. My sister is still putting up with her and is in a no-win situation chasing her own tail trying (and failing) to keep our M happy. Meanwhile my sister's DC are getting the full scapegoat/golden child roles forced upon them.

Yes I know I am describing my family, and not yours. But I look back and wonder why the hell my M didn't stand up for her husband and put her 'immediate' family first. Maybe if she had, she would have had a happier relationship with her husband and her DC. Maybe she would have broken the cycle and wouldn't be the miserable narc she is now.

All I really want to say is, please do not underestimate the potential damage that can be caused by allowing your M to dictate the way your family operates and putting her above your own husband. He will already know his place in the pecking order and has put up with it for 13 years. If he doesn't want to put up with her anymore, you must at least support his decision. If, as you say, you want a 'whole family' solution, the only one is to agree with your husband on this.

I would stop going om holiday with them; being in confined spaces for an extended period can often lead to tensions and conflict. It's like the house guests adage; like fish, they go off after 3 days! Also, I agree with PP who said that on occasions such as Fathers' Day, this should be a time for the nuclear family.

Regarding contact with your DDs, it sounds as though your DM is struggling a bit anyway, as you say that one has serious SNs and that DM tires easily. So perhaps only leave them with her for short periods, or do things together - DH doesn't need to be involved if he doesn't want to be. I am sure he can find suitable excuses and I don't expect DM will be too disappointed, if they have a personality clash.

However, I think that DH has to respect your relationship with your DM, even if he doesn't want one or much less of one. There must be a happy medium between his seeing a lot less of her and never speaking to her again. He sounds a bit immature and petulant to be honest.

You and your DM love each other, but have some issues, like many families, but she is someone you can talk to, who cares and listens, so I cant understand why some posters are suggesting that you should cut her out of your life and not let her see her DGCs, whom she loves. That is beyond cruel. Imagine how you would feel if that were to happen with your own DDS cutting you out of their lives in the future.

She was rude and he called her up on it. If she asks, tell her the truth. You DH doesn't like how she imposes her opinions on people and it is very waring for the rest of you.

I had some sympathy for you defending your corner against the armchair psychologists on here, until i read how you reacted to their row and your avoidance is very clear. .

FWIW, I once gve my father an ultimatum after our youngest was born. I told him he had to step up his behaviour if he wanted to see the DGC, his half arsed efforts were of no use to me and damaging to them. I stayed very calm and he got upset but he now sees them loads and is a reasonable grandparent. You have the power inthis scenario, not her.

I'm surprised by the amount of people who automatically say go LC, or NC, or LTB after just 1 argument or so! So you all really have nothing to do with family ever again?! Surely if they've not done something truly awful/evil that has really hurt & affected you, you don't just cut them out of your life forever do you?! I don't get it. So DC end up with no DGP because DM laughed at DH's diet?! Eh?
Sometimes we have to deal with difficult people & situations in life, I personally don't feel that just cutting them out (especially not a mum/dad) is the best way to deal with it.
I do understand that some people's situations are horrendous & toxic & they have no choice but to do this for their own wellbeing. But I'm not sure this is the case for OP.

Too much projecting and armchair experts on this thread. Of course you don't go no contact with your mother because she can be a pain in the arse sometimes, major over reaction.

The priority for me would be speaking to your DH to find a compromise position with your mum you can both live with. I am sure he doesn't expect you to cut your mum out completely and ask him how how would feel if you told him the children couldn't see his mum? With a bit of calm reflection, I think you can reach a position where there is basic civility for an easy life but you maintain your relationship with your mum primarily through you and the children, without involving your DH.

You & DH both need to find a compromise you can live with - the ability to compromise for each other is the cornerstone of a long and happy marriage..

OP - I think these questions above are very valid and would love to know the answers. I think it might help you as well.

Op - what did you do when your mother was making the endless snidey comments to your husband?

Did you have his back? Did you make it clear each and every time that such a comment was inappropriate and that nobody gets to speak to the man you choose like that and still have you in their life.

Or did you do nothing and expect him to put up with it?

Is maintaining the dysfunctional dynamic with your parents more important than establishing a respectful and healthy dynamic with your DH and children?

Right now you're effectively behaving like your mother in demanding that your DH prioritise you over his emotional wellbeing and probably the emotional wellbeing of your kids.

You can't demand loyalty if you ain't prepared to give it.

Apologies for my silence yesterday. Partly my internet was on the blink, partly I have found this thread very intense and needed a break. Probably a textbook daughter of a narc thing to do

Thank you to everyone who has contributed especially those who have shared their own very difficult family situations . I hope I haven't reopened any old wounds.

I think perhaps though from my OP it seemed like this was having a bigger impact on our lives than it really is. DH, DDs and I are together every day and like all families have a million things going on. I see my parents perhaps for 2 days once every 2 or 3 months, then maybe the odd longer spell once a year, and have a phone call once a week/fortnight (which obvs doesn't affect DH and DDs). Of our holiday time, perhaps 20% is spent with my parents, 20% DH's family, 60% us alone - we are pretty antisocial! It was top of mind after I had just spent the weekend with them but really, they don't have that much effect on our lives. People seem to think I am putting DM before DH, DH would honestly laugh himself silly at that suggestion! Because he knows me better than anyone.

As some have said, others may be projecting their own very toxic situations here. I do appreciate all the advice, I really do, but honestly this is not making DH and I unhappy. We are not avoiding the issue, more that we have about a dozen other issues that come higher up the giving a shit list!

I've been a bit shocked by a couple of the recurring themes in some of the posts - one is how quick some people are to say go NC, you can never have a relationship with a narc. There are shades of narc, NC is a big thing, and it's hard to make a judgment call when you know nothing about the situation. Though I recognise there have been some more balanced opinions so thank you for those!

The other is the "your DM, your problem" attitude, and the suggestions if the "boot was on the other foot" I would expect DH to do the fighting. The boot has been on the other foot, I had a big falling out with MIL, and dealt with it myself. DH wasn't going to touch that with a bargepole and I didn't expect him to! It was my battle. Perhaps this is colouring my view of expecting him to fight his own battle with my DM rather than expect me to do it. I have fought many battles with DM over the years, I hardly shy away from it. I'm just of the opinion that grownups talk to each other directly, not "so-and-so thinks this about you" like in a playground. So the accusations that I "don't have his back" are just silly. DH knows very well that I support him on everything, and suggestions that my DM may come between us or ruin our marriage are just way off the mark.

Of course, the issue with the DCs is different, that IS my battle. If she keeps showing favourites, I'm going to make it very clear that's not acceptable. She herself, being a non-favoured child, should know how damaging that is. I can't remember if I said this already, but I think she thinks I favour DD2, so she's trying in a warped (maybe even unconscious) way to redress the balance, doesn't excuse it though. I like the way some PPs have put rules in place, going to have a think about that and exactly what the boundaries are.

DH and I have agreed that we are going to limit the amount of time we spend with them, read up on grey rock and employ it wherever possible (thanks to those who suggested it), and he can go off and do other things if they visit. I have accepted that we can't go on holiday with them again, and also can't leave the DDs with them. It's a shame, but also not a huge loss.

If they do come on father's day, DH will go out for the day. And before anyone feels desperately sorry for him, that is his ideal father's day and one he has been lobbying for for years . We'd do a family lunch with the DDs the day before, but that's more for the DDs sake than DH. Neither of us really go big on "events", we don't even bother with anniversaries etc. DPs may not even come anyway, and I haven't been pushing them.

Oh and to those who said I should have called her on it when they were arguing/she made rude comments. If you have ever spent time with a narc you will know there is NO POINT. I called her on everything ridiculous she said for the first 30 years of my life, and it was only me that got hurt. She digs her heels in more and it makes it worse! Zero point. But having dwelled on it, there is no point DH saying anything to her either. The drama would reveberate around the family for years, and it's just not worth it. Grey rock, all the way...

Sounds like a good plan, Op

I really hope grey rock works for you - I'm sure it will help. Adopting an air of vagueness is quite helpful, as is frequent use of the phrases "Hmmm, let me check the calendar...I'll let you know" and "oops sorry Mum, someone at the door". ☺️

The other is the "your DM, your problem" attitude, and the suggestions if the "boot was on the other foot" I would expect DH to do the fighting. The boot has been on the other foot, I had a big falling out with MIL, and dealt with it myself. DH wasn't going to touch that with a bargepole and I didn't expect him to! It was my battle.

He has told you how he is going to deal with it, you just don't like it.

op I hope it works out for you.

Grey rock would never have worked for me - my M lives locally so she would constantly ignore boundaries I tried to uphold and try to up the ante. But if your M lives a long way away it should be a bit easier.

Good luck Op. I really hope your plan all goes well. Putting boundaries in place is going to be so important for you. It's ok to expect your DH to stand his own ground but you have to support him. You are the only one that can break the unhealthy relationship dynamics going on between your family and your mother.

I think you and your DH in particular just need to see your mum LESS. I mean, anyone can put up with anything if it's for say, 2 days every couple of months.this is how often I think most adults see their parents,especially if their DP isn't too keen. And ffs don't go on flippin holiday with her!!!

Thanks all

x

BIWI interesting bit at the end of your long post there, my father had depression and he ''transposed'' his own low self-esteem on to me when I was growing up and I think in subtle roundabout ways I was rewarded for failure (ie, affectionate form of attention). My brother was the golden child and my father had v high hopes for him but identified more of his own failures, frustrations and depression on to me. He is still suggesting to me that I become a typist (I'm unemployed atm, he had fantasies that my brother would do a phd. I'm as clever as my brother in different ways so both ''aspirations'' are equally far off the mark).

My parents aren't toxic though. They are deeply flawed people who have never looked inwards, never had any growth, their own parents were all dead by the time I was 14 and they have no experience parenting adults.

I get through it by trying not to focus on persuading them that I have a right to think what I think or do what I do. I stop and ask myself, what power do they have to control my actions here, and if the answer is none then I just do what I was going to do anyway. It is really hard though. My mum sees me as an awkward, stroppy, disobedient rebel because I spent my youth fighting for my right to choose my own path. She dissuaded me from ever taking a risk, from choosing my own path and pushed all of her ideas on me. A decade ago (in my mid 30s) I was still a mess. A mess or a vacuum. Only getting through it now but they are not toxic.

Goodness me what a powerful thread. I am an ex Golden Child and one of my sisters is the Scapegoat. The post by BIWI resonated more than anything I have ever read about narcs, and I am in the - "she's bad but she's not THAT bad" camp, like you OP.
I'm 5 years into my therapy (not just re mother ) My Scapegoat sister has just started hers.
I have (without knowing what it was called) gone grey rock. Mother hates it , hates it , hates it. But that is how it is now. I finally chose me, after 5 and a half decades of choosing her at my expense.
Interestingly enough , whilst mother knows I see a therapist weekly she now talks of my focussing on my "condition" in an attempt to make me stop seeing him. I had to be very firm at the beginning, because she asked me what we'd talked about every week, until I said "not up for discussion" I suspect she has made a wax effigy of him and sticks pins in it.
I pretty much know she doesn't like my DH any more, believing him to be partly responsible for the sea change.But she can bollocks because he will always always always come first.
I wish you well OP. I can't tell you how much I empathise with you.