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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Big row between DH and my DM. AIBU or is he?

166 replies

Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 14:09

Namechanged as this may out me to friends. Will try and keep this short but not end up dripfeeding!

Background is my mum is a bit of a PITA. Narc tendancies definitely - she's pretty self-absorbed, super defensive when criticised, thinks she is right and everyone else is wrong etc etc. But she's not THAT bad, certainly not as bad as some of the descriptions of narcs I have read on here. I didn't get on well with her as a teen but nowadays we get on fine - speak at least once a week and she is generally supportive and a decent listener. Sometimes she is judgemental and I can't tell her everything, e.g. she is v critical of anyone on anti-ds, so I never discuss things like that. But I do talk to her more often than friends. She is my mum after all and a mum will always care more about little things than friends will.

She loves my 2 DDs and they love seeing her too. However she is not exactly brilliant with them. She's not great at playing, tires easily and after a while they always end up in front of the TV. She also clearly favours DD1 - not to the extent she doesn't love DD2, but DD2 does end up being told off more often (despite the fact DD1 is much more challenging! so it's not about good behaviour), and for example while out with both of them may say things like "DD1, look at that swan!". DD2 is only 3 and doesn't seem to have noticed yet, but she will.

Long story short, DH has put up with her for 13 years, but on a recent holiday they had a barney. It was over something minor, but was clearly his pent up frustration about her having to be right about everything. Since then, she has ignored it and has indicated she will pretend it never happened. DH however has decided he doesn't want to see her again, and ideally doesn't want the DDs to either. Of course he won't tell her that though, so it would be up to me to tell her and deal with the consequences (which we all know will be a narcisstic rage). Plus she'd be understandably upset if we took away contact with her only DGCs.

I have considered NC before, but decided against it, partly because our relationship isn't all bad and on balance I feel it is positive. That, and I don't want to destroy relationship with my DF. Or my DDs relationship with their DGPs. My gran clearly favoured a cousin of mine, and also wasn't the easiest woman, but I'm still glad that I had her in my life, so I'm not convinced that stopping contact is the best thing for the girls either.

Any advice? I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing. After all MIL is no picnic but I put up with her! Is DH being U or even childish for refusing to see his MIL, and by assuming there will be no fallout, or more likely just leaving me to deal with it? Or AIBU for forcing him to see someone he really dislikes, or forcing him to have the confrontation himself?

Either way I feel like it will be horrible. DM is pretty blind to these things and doesn't seem to have noticed he is avoiding her, but DF has and has been asking me about it. It's going to start being obvious soon and I don't know what to do... TIA

OP posts:
Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 15:26

osolea - the argument was about something very silly. DH's diet! She had been making snarky comments about it all weekend and he snapped. Nothing to do with the favouritism.

As for how they acted, both pretty childishly actually. They started shouting at each other with the DDs in the room and I had to tell them both to stop it while I ushered DDs out. After that DH just avoided DM, and DM started pretending nothing had happened.

OP posts:
TempusEedjit · 05/06/2017 15:27

Having arguments isn't the same thing as standing up to bad behaviour. You stand up to bad behaviour with actions, not words, i.e. walking away. By engaging in an argument you are trying to justify yourself to that other person and but they have narc tendencies they won't be interested in your point of view.

You say she has good friends so she can't be all bad - not true. Look at how many people have abusive partners who are perfectly functional/normal with their friends, work colleagues etc. It doesn't matter if she's nice to others, all that matters is whether she chooses to be nice to you and your family.

Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 15:31

Sherbert thank you for sharing your experience. That sounds awful.

With DM it is not that pronounced, she is interested in DD2 and loving etc, just not quite as doting/forgiving as with DD1, more quick to tell her off etc.

Brave of you to confront her on it. Of course I know that's what I need to do, though as anyone who knows narcs will understand, it will not be easy...

Yes I would be prepared to go LC if she doesn't change. NC I don't know...

P.s. loving the phrase "woman up"!

OP posts:
FizzyGreenWater · 05/06/2017 15:36

The biggest issue I see between you and your DH right now is that he has an issue, but is hiding behind you to implement it. That's not on. He has a problem - he can come out and say it... or, show some deeper appreciation of the dilemma it puts YOU in.

Not saying he isn't right - but what he's doing is hardly helpful.

Sorry you've had such a hard time!

Osolea · 05/06/2017 15:36

If your DM had been making digs about your DHs diet all weekend then it's not surprising he no longer wants to be around her. He probably also doesn't want his children to hear their gran criticising their father.

It's not a row about something minor at all, it sounds like a row that came about because your dh was forced to stick up for himself. Really, you need to stop minimising that and put your husband and children first. When you do that, you'd be absolutely right to expect your husbands support because clearly it will be very difficult and upsetting for you, but it's incredibly unfair of you to expect your dh to 'suck it up' indefinitely.

Instasista · 05/06/2017 15:40

My MIL is like your mum. I've sucked it up, basically, and we've had our ups and downs over the years.

There are many times when I was younger, angrier and child free I would've gone NC but my DH would never have allowed it (as a couple I mean)

Now, meh. All families have ups and down and NC at every argument is a daft idea. Families do have conflict but you have to learn to rub along a bit because depriving your children of a grandparent is a very serious, major decision. Some grandparents don't deserve contact but most do, and most Children benefit hugely from that relationship. It would be cruel to go no contact for something like this imo

DearMrDilkington · 05/06/2017 15:42

I'd go Nc with her over the favouritism, it's so damaging to a childs self esteem and confidence. If it continues it'll also destroy your childrens' relationship with each other.

Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 15:43

Thanks Fizzy, you have put it better than I did. I don't blame him for wanting to limit contact, but wish he'd show some more understanding of the situation it puts me in, and help with the logistics.

Osolea, I understand the sentiment of what you're saying but not the practicalities. My DH knows of course that I put him and the dcs before my DM. What do you mean I should do on a practical level? Limit contact or not? What do you mean by I should expect his support? Sorry to be dense I am just not clear on what you mean.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 05/06/2017 15:46

Your H is right here and NO he does not have to suck it up buttercup.

He can see the dysfunction more clearly because he has not been raised by a narcissist and her willing enabler (such people always but always need a willing enabler to help them).

This sort of toxic dysfunction goes down the generations. So that's already two generations affected by a narcissistic relative and now your children are in your mother's firing line.

I think you do love your H by the way, of that I have no doubt. But he is right here and you are really still playing into your mother's hands by stating denial based assertions like, "oh she's not that bad". Oh but she is.

Do read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. She will indeed not let you go quietly and she will rail at any attempts you make to set yourselves free but really what can she do?. Let go of the rope she keeps holding out for you.

Where are your own boundaries here with regards to your parents; it seems that they, in particular your mother, have never really encouraged you to have any with regards to them.

A narcissist is not just a "PITA" that is far too simplistic a description to use. Such a term also shows poor understanding of just how much harm these disordered people can do.

This should also really be in Relationships rather than AIBU as well. Its not an AIBU question or issue.

You act like and are still very much the adult child of a narcissist and she has trained you well to serve her.

Also your father is very much her hatchet man here and he has failed you completely as well by not protecting you from her malign influences.

An adult child of a narcissist very much likes to believe that the narcissist parent will not be so awful with their own children this time around but the fact is that your mother has not fundamentally altered from your childhood. She is harming your children in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed; she is already favouring one of your children over the other and that will cause their own sibling relationship to be damaged. She is making your eldest the golden child (a role itself not without price) and your youngest the scapegoat. Exposing your children at all to her toxic behaviours is the worst thing you can do for and to them.

These people may be the only parents you have but your own family unit have to come first now. Your mother (and in turn your dad) is undermining that and in turn you from being at all around your children and you facilitating contact (you still want her approval and that she will never give you).

You are her narcissistic supply as are your children and her friends are being used by her in a similar manner as you are; they are useful to her. Narcissists do tend to over value or under value relationships with their grandchildren. You are still very much fearful of her rages; narc rages are truly awful to behold.

Re your comment:-

"He does the same with his own DM - when we fell out with her, it was me who patched it up. I don't believe in sticking family together at all costs but I also don't believe in walking away when there is value to the relationship".

Now why did you do that?. It was not your fight to begin with. He saw that there was no value to the relationship with his mother and there is really no relationship to be had with your mother now. Its simply not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

honeyrider · 05/06/2017 15:46

YABVU and putting your mother before your DH and children, she has you so conditioned to it that no matter what's pointed out to you about her behaviour you've continuously minimising it and then passing the blame onto your DH and expecting him to "suck up" her bad behaviour.

He's the one being the protective parent because you're failing to protect your children from her behaviour. If you want your children to have a loving relationship with each other then you need to let your DH protect them from her behaviour because so far you're not able to.

BIWI · 05/06/2017 15:47

You might like to read this piece, from this website

If you've had counselling about this issue, then you may be aware of the Golden Child syndrome. As you're an only child, your DM didn't have the opportunity to behave like this, but I worry from what you say that she may be treating your daughters like this:

It’s very common for Narcissistic Mothers to have a Golden Child and Scapegoat dynamic going on in their family.

What this means is this: one child in the family is the Golden Child, and one or more is the Scapegoat.

The Golden Child, as the name suggests, is the best and most wonderful child – at least in the eyes of the Narcissistic Mother. It seems to be that the Narcissistic Mother picks the Golden Child to be an extension of herself, onto whom she projects all her own supposed wonderfulness.

The Golden Child can do no wrong. She gets given the best of everything – perhaps even apartments or houses bought for her. Her most minor achievements are celebrated and held up for admiration. Her misdemeanours are glossed over and ignored.

The Scapegoat on the other hand is, also as the name suggests, the person on whom all the ills of the family are projected. They can do no right. Their major achievements are dismissed. Any money spent on them is the bare minimum and is spent begrudgingly.

Growing up the Scapegoat can understandably feel very jealous of the Golden Child. This, of course, leads to friction between the children, which suits the Narcissistic Mother. Divide and conquer and all that, and lots of opportunities for triangulation. Indeed, the Golden Child can be encouraged by the Narcissistic Mother, either overtly or tacitly, to bully the Scapegoat which adds to the friction.

The Scapegoat can be punished for doing something well, because that threatens the narcissist’s narrative that the Scapegoat is all bad. Not overtly punished, because that would also ruin the narrative that it’s all the Scapegoat’s fault. But subtly, sneakily. You had to give up dancing just as you reached a triumphant milestone because of [insert trumped up excuse here] - maybe they supposedly couldn't afford dance classes any longer, or the lift to the dance classes was no longer possible, or they fell out with the dance teacher. Bonus points if the reason for sabotaging the dance classes involved the Golden Child: “Golden Child wants to do dance too, and we can’t afford both, and it’s not fair for you to be the only one.” (And no matter if Golden Child does stuff that you don’t.) Or, “We can’t bring you to dance class any more as Golden Child is taking up karate and her classes are on at that time.”

Or the punishment might be more subtle. Perhaps your dog got given away, ostensibly for a totally unconnected reason, after you won the dance medal. When such things happen enough you’ll learn, consciously or unconsciously, the pattern that bad things happen after you do something good, and you’ll start to sabotage your own successes to protect you from that. (As an aside, be aware that such sabotage patterns will last a whole lifetime until and unless they are pro-actively erased. EFT/Tapping is excellent for identifying and erasing such patterns.)

Or the punishment might be as head-wrecking and subtle as your parents’ reaction. Oh they’ll say the right things. But their expressions and their coolness will tell the real story, that they’re angry at this achievement (again, because it spoils their carefully constructed narrative), and you’ll pick up on that and feel the icy blast of their disapproval.

Likewise you might get rewarded, in a strange way, for failure. You might get the approval of living down to their expectations, and you’ll pick up on that, and even that meagre approval feels good.

The Scapegoat is often what’s called the Identified Patient. This is the one who all the ills of the family are projected onto, and who often will play out those ills.

It’s not surprising that if you were abused and demeaned and treated unfairly all your life that you might have issues such as eating disorders or addiction problems or anger management issues, or depression etc. And so this reinforces the narrative that you’re the wrong one, the bad one, the Black Sheep.

You even believe it yourself, that you’re the problem child, the bad seed. After all, you do have the eating disorder or whatever. That’s undeniable.

They might bring you to therapy to try to get you fixed.

One of two things will happen there. You’ll either end up with a bad therapist who will believe the narrative as presented, and further reinforce your sense of your own badness and failure. Or, you’ll have a good therapist who sees through the lies and tries to treat the real broken dynamic rather than the supposedly broken you. In this case, at the first whiff that there might be something wrong with them, your parents will find some excuse (that no doubt is your fault) and whisk you away from that therapy, and that aborted therapy is another failure of yours.

The scapegoat is truly in a no-win situation. In most cases the abuse is subtle enough that it wouldn't warrant the involvement of social services, and so there is no option but to endure it to adulthood.

I’d go so far as to venture that, if you’re reading this, you were more likely to have been the Scapegoat than the Golden Child.

This is because, contrary to the way it felt growing up, the Scapegoat is actually the lucky one. (I mean relatively lucky, of course. No child of a narcissistic mother can be ever described as being lucky.)

The Golden Child can end up very engulfed by the Narcissistic Mother, and her life can end up being enmeshed in the Narcissistic Mother’s. She may well grow without proper boundaries and proper self-identity. She is likely to remain, either forever or for a long time, as a puppet of the Narcissistic Mother, and if she ever does manage to break free, that process will be infinitely more painful for her than it is for the Scapegoat.

The Scapegoat on the other hand, is the independent one. She’s the one who’s driven to seek answers and who may well realise about Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She’s the one who can break free from the unhealthy dynamics of the family and do her best to create a healthy life and recover from the lies she was told about herself since the day she was born. It's still not easy for her (i.e. for you) of course. Nothing about this journey is easy. But it's doable, and possible.

BIWI · 05/06/2017 15:47

Sorry correct link here

BluePeppers · 05/06/2017 15:51

I agree wuth Fizzy
Your dh is the ne who has issue with yoour mum therefore he should be the one to sort whatever needs sorting.

HOWEVER, what he can NOT do is to tell you if you and your dcs can see her or not.
Of course, on his pov, not seeing her or your dad wont have any impact. But it will on you and on your dcs.

Also, the argument is NOT about the dcs or whatever. Its about his diet. So really something between your drum and him. If he decides that this an argument petty enough to never see her again (or really minimum contact) then so be it. He shouldn't drag you and your dcs into it.

I would be quite careful about her attitude towards dc2 and i think you should be weary on the effect ot will have your dd2.
It ha nothing to do with the current issue though.

BluePeppers · 05/06/2017 15:54

The thing about saying that the dm is a narc anbd therefore the OP shouod be NC....

Its all well and good BUT the OP has only one mother ad we all know that we love our parents no matter what (or rather that it takes really a lot to distance yourself like this)
The OP also has had counselling and therefore is well equipped to see her mother for what she is.
On the other side, we know nothing of her DH. Eg what sort of childhood he has had and what sort of impact it has had. He might well have grown up over sensitive to some issues. We dont know.

OP you are mentioning counselling. Do you still have counselling and if yes, have you mentioned this issue to your counsellor?

IHateUncleJamie · 05/06/2017 15:55

OP, you sound like me about 5 years ago. I look back now and WISH I had let my DH stand up for me and put my N Mum firmly in her place. He would have been the first man ever to do this. Instead, because my parents are dd's only GPs, I kept putting up with my Mother's increasingly worsening behaviour. What's worse is knowing the bad example I set for my dd because I wasn't assertive. It's very hard because a Narc Mum brainwashes her family over years and years - I lost count of the times I said "but she's not that bad". She WAS but I had been conditioned to accept it.

This rang a bell: She is a pain but she isn't completely awful. She has good friends and they would hardly have stood by her for decades if she was all bad. Let alone DF.

She WOULD keep friends - either they're like her, or she buys them, or they might even be your Dad's friends who tolerate your Mum.

And your Dad will have been conditioned and brainwashed for YEARS.

Nobody can or should tell you to go NC with your Mum because it may be unnecessary, assuming you can gradually set boundaries and manage her behaviour towards YOU. That's your choice. You can only go NC and stick to it when there is no other option and you have to do so to protect yourself.

BUT - very important - your Mum is NOT your DH's Mum. She is nothing to him - he does not and should not have to tolerate her behaviour towards him. Let him deal with her in his own way.

Likewise, be extremely careful and limit contact between your Mum and your dds. She will make one the golden child and one the scapegoat. She will probably try to drive a wedge between them. She may make snide comments to them about your DH. I would advise no unsupervised time without you there. I understand the position you're in and I'm not scaremongering - I've been there and have seen firsthand the effect of a toxic GM on grandchildren. Flowers

BadTasteFlump · 05/06/2017 15:57

op another thing has struck a chord with me - you say you argue with your M. I used to argue with my M a lot. I used to think that meant I was 'standing up to her' and 'not letting her get away with it' etc, but it didn't mean at at all. I would argue with her about stupid little things, that would go round in circles and never get resolved. I never actually dared to argue with her about the big things, because it would have ended in a huge, horrible rage.

Eventually I did stand up to her on the big stuff - because I could see it was upsetting my DC. And guess what - she raged at me really, really horribly. It really upset me.

But actually, I think it did me a favour. Even I couldn't make excuses for her saying/doing the things she did 'because she's my only mum'. I had to face the fact that she was toxic, and she was damaging my otherwise happy family (ie my Dh, Dc and me!).

You don't have to put up with her shit 'because' she's your mother. You are an adult and you don't have to put up with shit from anybody. Do you know what somebody is when that person is so toxic that they have made you afraid to confront their behaviour? They are a bully.

Just keep asking yourself if the positives really outweigh the negatives. If they do, fine.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 05/06/2017 15:58

He can see the harm being done to his children by OPs mother making his children a scapegoat or a golden child. The dynamic that OP herself saw as a child is simply being played out again with their children now in the direct line of fire. OP is very much still the adult child of a narcissist; a textbook example of one actually.

These children are narcissistic supply to OPs mother, nothing more than that. She will likely try to steal the heart and mind of the children too from the parents and it will all be done right under their very noses.

Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 16:01

Thank you all. I have read a lot from the daughters of narcistic mothers site. A lot has been helpful. I hadn't read that piece on scapegoat/golden though, very interesting.

Waves at Biwi - you have given me great advice on another thread. You might be tickled to learn that the argument was caused by DH's low carb diet, which DM was ridiculing...

Back to the topic at hand, DH and I have often joked, in a gallows humour type way, that I grew up the non-favourite child in an only child household Grin. I always came second to DM's career, so identify far more with the scapegoat child than the golden one. In fact that passage describes me very well.

DM was not as damaging as some of the descriptions here (why won't people believe me on this! I am a clever person, I have not been brainwashed!), she was more self-absorbed than actively damaging iyswim. Or rather, is, I should say.

Ok, If I was to go about initiating LC, how would I do it? DM calls on a weekly basis, and is due to come over in a couple of weeks. How to handle?

OP posts:
RunRabbitRunRabbit · 05/06/2017 16:04

You want practical help. OK. I've got a horrible mother too (and a whole bevvy of flying monkeys) so I have some experience of this, as do others on here.

Let's say DH is going grey pebble. He avoids meeting her without making a big song and dance about it.

What might a happen with your mother when she twigs?

Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 16:06

Attila I'm glad to know I am as simplistic as a textbook example, that makes my life an awful lot easier. I'll just consult the textbook then shall I and everything will be fine Hmm

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 05/06/2017 16:08

"Nobody can or should tell you to go NC with your Mum because it may be unnecessary, assuming you can gradually set boundaries and manage her behaviour towards YOU".

There are major difficulties with the above approach.

Narcissists typically have poor boundaries themselves; they like to win and maintain power, and they don’t like others setting boundaries on them. They will in all likelihood ignore any boundaries that are set. After all they have encouraged the OP not to really have any with regards to them so setting boundaries anyway is going to be very difficult.

OP - I would try using the "grey rock" technique on your mother.

Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 16:09

Thank you runrabbit! grey pebble?

So for example, DPs are planning to visit for a weekend in a few weeks. How could DH avoid them for the whole time? Alternatively how could I cancel without the big song and dance? It is DM's bday and father's day

OP posts:
Stuckbetweenrockandpita · 05/06/2017 16:10

grey rock? ok, I haven't done nearly as much reading as I thought I had...
[off to google...]

OP posts:
BadTasteFlump · 05/06/2017 16:10

Op it's not about being clever or not. I have a Masters degree, Etc etc. I didn't stop me being brainwashed for years. Our narc mothers are training us into our roles before we can even speak. No amount of intelligence can protect us against that!

Hont1986 · 05/06/2017 16:10

Answer her calls but keep answers short and avoid DC as a topic. Have some event/activity that has to call you away if she starts to get angry (e.g. cake burning).

For the visit, go out somewhere rather than keeping it at home. Make it somewhere fairly close so it isn't inconvenient to leave quickly if she starts to act up.

I think it would be a good idea to have you and DH tell her that you want her behaviour to change or you will have to go LC with her. If you do this without any explanation then as you say, she will put up a fight.