Big row between DH and my DM. AIBU or is he?

[Stuckbetweenrockandpita]

Namechanged as this may out me to friends. Will try and keep this short but not end up dripfeeding!

Background is my mum is a bit of a PITA. Narc tendancies definitely - she's pretty self-absorbed, super defensive when criticised, thinks she is right and everyone else is wrong etc etc. But she's not THAT bad, certainly not as bad as some of the descriptions of narcs I have read on here. I didn't get on well with her as a teen but nowadays we get on fine - speak at least once a week and she is generally supportive and a decent listener. Sometimes she is judgemental and I can't tell her everything, e.g. she is v critical of anyone on anti-ds, so I never discuss things like that. But I do talk to her more often than friends. She is my mum after all and a mum will always care more about little things than friends will.

She loves my 2 DDs and they love seeing her too. However she is not exactly brilliant with them. She's not great at playing, tires easily and after a while they always end up in front of the TV. She also clearly favours DD1 - not to the extent she doesn't love DD2, but DD2 does end up being told off more often (despite the fact DD1 is much more challenging! so it's not about good behaviour), and for example while out with both of them may say things like "DD1, look at that swan!". DD2 is only 3 and doesn't seem to have noticed yet, but she will.

Long story short, DH has put up with her for 13 years, but on a recent holiday they had a barney. It was over something minor, but was clearly his pent up frustration about her having to be right about everything. Since then, she has ignored it and has indicated she will pretend it never happened. DH however has decided he doesn't want to see her again, and ideally doesn't want the DDs to either. Of course he won't tell her that though, so it would be up to me to tell her and deal with the consequences (which we all know will be a narcisstic rage). Plus she'd be understandably upset if we took away contact with her only DGCs.

I have considered NC before, but decided against it, partly because our relationship isn't all bad and on balance I feel it is positive. That, and I don't want to destroy relationship with my DF. Or my DDs relationship with their DGPs. My gran clearly favoured a cousin of mine, and also wasn't the easiest woman, but I'm still glad that I had her in my life, so I'm not convinced that stopping contact is the best thing for the girls either.

Any advice? I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing. After all MIL is no picnic but I put up with her! Is DH being U or even childish for refusing to see his MIL, and by assuming there will be no fallout, or more likely just leaving me to deal with it? Or AIBU for forcing him to see someone he really dislikes, or forcing him to have the confrontation himself?

Either way I feel like it will be horrible. DM is pretty blind to these things and doesn't seem to have noticed he is avoiding her, but DF has and has been asking me about it. It's going to start being obvious soon and I don't know what to do... TIA

I'm your DH. I put up with 20 years of my IL's being narcissitic and difficult and a bit shit to me. More than a bit. Then their DGC came along and they openly favour their DD's children. DH never dealt with any of it. Ever. Just staying 'you know what they're like' is not enough and I eventually had enough. I now see them as little as possible. I sucked it up but actually I shouldn't have had to. Neither should your DH. They see my DC because I'm not going to stop them but they'll have to deal with the fallout of the favouritism as my DC already realise and don't really want to see them.

I agree with Nelly, your dh is actually part of the problem as he's just hiding. That's spineless and putting more pressure on you. You said you are a team. Well he needs to get on board with that because that's not how he's acting ATM.

Why have you tolerated any of this from your mother if you would not take it from a friend?. They are really no different.

I was not trying to be dismissive of you at all. You are very much an adult child of a narcissist and are still trying to figure things out.

I am not surprised you have anger issues; that really comes from how your mother has treated you and in turn now your own family unit. Many adult children of narcissists still cling onto the forlorn hope that their parents will behave better with the grandchildren this time around; it does not happen. Your parents have really not fundamentally altered since childhood.

All this anyway can leave people very angry and mired in FOG - fear, obligation and guilt. Reading up on FOG as well as adopting the grey rock technique with your mother may well help you as well.

Ultimately you will need to grieve for the relationship with your mother that you should have had rather than the one you actually got. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. Do not let the fact that you only have one mother cloud your judgment here further; she has not been a good parent to you and is a poor example of a grandparent to your DC. At the very least now, your H and you are going to have to present a united front re your parents.

You said you are a team. Well he needs to get on board with that because that's not how he's acting ATM.

Do you perhaps think that the OP hasn't let him/hasn't wanted him to stick up for her/stick up for himself before now though? For the sake of not rocking the boat?

I'm really not getting it. You know her best, so if you think she has narcissistic tendencies then I'm sure you're right, but a lot of other posters seem to be projecting their own relationships and trying to persuade you that it's a lot worse than the evidence you've given implies.

You've said nothing that suggests your mother 'scapegoats' your youngest; only that she gives your elder a bit more leeway (possibly precisely because you find her more challenging). If your husband wants to avoid her, that's his business, but from what you've said (she's supportive, a good listener) I don't know why you'd consider going nc or cutting her off from her grandchildren.

My grandmothers didn't have a favourite grandchild, but they did have a least favourite. Me! My grandfathers both loved me and my parents were scrupulously equitable, so it was something we joked about. Its not affected me in the slightest and I look back fondly on my battles of wills with the mad old bats.

Thank you Nelly. That's all I want really, some help dealing with the fallout, as I know there will be fallout. We only see them every few months if that, it's more the expectation that we will go on holiday with them, do birthdays and christmases, that sort of thing, and for several days each time. I phrased it badly in the op, I don't just expect him to suck it up, but don't want to be on my own with this one.

Yes mummyoflittledragon that resonates. I need to manage her more effectively.

Someone asked if I was still in counselling - no, it has only been a few courses in the past and I can't afford to have it ongoing. Plus as well as DM issues there is other stuff to deal with too (won't bore you with details) so there probably are mother issues that I haven't yet resolved. Or rather, I came to terms with it but haven't yet got the tools to deal with it.

It's not easy to walk away and I don't personally think you have to. I don't think you are niave about your mother's failings. I don't think that one grandparent who favours one child over another has much of a bearing on children with grounded parents who keep things even.

I think you you are doing fine. If you think you can negotiate a reasonable relationship with a tricky mother, knowing when to wash in and out of her life to minimise damage but maintain a compromised bond, then I'm sure you know better than strangers.

OP, she's your mother. You husband obviously should support you, but it's your relationship, not his.

And self-protection is not selfishness. You can't expect others to be martyrs just because you place yourself in that position.

OP, as soon as you say the word 'narc', you know the answer will be go NC. She doesn't really sound that narc to me, just a bit arrogant and unselfcontrolled (as does dh a bit too). They clearly have a bit of a personality clash. I am a bit like this with my BIL as we are similar and therefore clash. He's pretty selfish and I'm confrontational. My dsis is much more of a peacemaker, although she has ways of making herself heard which are a bit less aggressive than me.

I think you need to think really carefully about this, and maybe talk to friends, or people who know your DM or have experienced her, other than dh, who also sounds a bit childish.

gubbins,

re your comment:-
"My grandmothers didn't have a favourite grandchild, but they did have a least favourite. Me! My grandfathers both loved me and my parents were scrupulously equitable, so it was something we joked about"

that is rotten Gubbins. You were but a child and that was in no way your fault, the fault was your grandmothers and theirs alone. They were unlikeable people. Fortunately for you your parents and grandfathers were great people who between them negated the emotional harm. Unfortunately OP has not been so lucky with regards to herself and her children.

greedygorb did you ever tell your ILs why you don't see them? Do you want your DH to? Also what if your DCs did want to see them?

UncleJamie.... maybe. I'm pondering your theory. Certainly not consciously but perhaps I am afraid of rocking the boat certainly DM's rages aren't fun for anyone. Or maybe it is not bad enough to consider upsetting things for...

Gubbins yes I think you have a point too, there is some projecting going on. When I say she's not THAT bad I am accused of being brainwashed, and maybe I am, but also maybe she isn't!! Everyone must agree there is a narc spectrum right? I don't think she is bad enough to consider NC but it is very hard to get an unclouded judgement because no one else knows her...

"I think you need to think really carefully about this, and maybe talk to friends, or people who know your DM or have experienced her, other than dh, who also sounds a bit childish".

Friends can be over invested and many people really do not get the whole toxic families thing at all, let alone ones in which narcissism features. Many people really do not want to believe that this can actually happen within families also because it does not thankfully happen within theirs.

OP - it may well be worth your while now trying to find a therapist and preferably one who has experience in dealing with narcissism. Finding such a person and one at that who has no bias about keeping families together could help you re your own self and your family unit too.

Your mother is creating a divide - not only between you and your husband, but between your children, too. She is "golden child"ing your oldest daughter, and "scape goating" your younger.

Pretty soon, if this hasn't already begun to happen, your elder daughter is going to mimic your mother's behaviour towards your younger. Everything will suddenly become your younger daughter's fault, subtle manipulations will be put into play ("Mummy, you do love me more than X, don't you?!"), and so on. How will that make not only your younger daughter feel... but also you and your husband? As her parents, it is your job to protect your children, and your husband is trying to do that.

As a previous poster said, NPD is something that can be passed down through the generations. It can also skip them, too. My mother has undiagnosed tendancies towards narcissism/narcissistic behaviour, whilst my daughter... her eldest granddaughter and my eldest child... actually has a clinical diagnosis of this disorder. My younger child feels as though his grandmother hates him. Because she favours my daughter, over him, and always has done. It has caused a huge divide in my family, and to be honest, I wouldn't wish having a NPD child on anyone, especially if you don't have a personality disorder yourself (like me).

Please back your husband up on this one. For the sake of your daughters, if not your own.

I don't agree with PP saying that it's your husbands problem and that he needs to deal with it, it's your mum not his.

In every MIL thread where there is a problem the OP is told to get their partner/husband to idea with it.

Yes, some narcs are worse than others. My sil is a narcissist and a psychopath for example. My mother is totally unconscious of what she is doing. She doesn't mean to hurt me. She's oblivious most of the time and thinks she wants peace and harmony in the world and I'm the source of her ills, brings up past and perceived hurts because she doesn't feel listened to... was a unloved child, whose mother expected to be adored as she expects to be adored. She just wants to be heard. Some narcissists aren't as bad as this. Some are worse and it is a sliding scale. My sil is far worse as she likes to play with us, like prey.

This is tricky. You say she is always right.. Does that mean she does not respect your wishes as parents? If your DH has been dealing with that a long time I can see why he'd want to minimize contact between her and DDs as that could greatly affect them and the way you're trying to bring them up.

That being said, going NC is a huge deal. We have family I don't really trust and definitely have marc tendencies, but I wouldn't cut them off completely. Maybe try compromising with DH about spending less time with her? In example :: if you see her twice a month, only see her once a month or every other month? If DH doesn't want to see her, just always tell her that he's busy.. but agree that he will be present for specific holidays? Then you can supervise visits with her and your DCs on a less frequent basis, but it isn't cutting off all contact between the DCs and your DPs. Sometimes less is more with difficult GPs and may help you guys to have a healthier relationship with her. I'd let your DH cool down about it and then sit him down about trying to find some sort of compromise.

I just saw your recent post OP about seeing them several times a year. If it is a full week at a time, that is a lot. Maybe you could go on less frequent trips and for shorter lengths of time. Above all I'd stand with your DH on this one or you guys could try a couple counseling sessions to sort through it and come to a decision, so that you can feel you are both making it and there won't be a resentment towards your DH in the future. If you go total NC then expect it might create a rift with other family members (siblings, aunts/uncles, etc) . We went through this but we weren't even going NC, just distancing ourselves a little bit more. Eventually people will accept it, but going NC is another story- you can't expect them to accept that. Nobody would, even if they weren't a narc.

OP I think both you and DH are hiding from this to some extent - he wants to cut contact and you say you're prepared to do something, but it comes across quite clearly that you really don't want to antagonise your mother and would prefer it to be brushed under the carpet. (I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing)

I'm not usually a fan of 'if the boot was on the other foot', but in this case I genuinely think that if this was your MiL and it was your DH who wanted to maintain the relationship not you, and was telling you she's not that bad, you'd be told you have a DH problem not a MiL problem.

I also think you're not giving him quite enough credit for having put up with it - presumably for your sake - for 13 years before he cracked.

UncleJamie.... maybe. I'm pondering your theory. Certainly not consciously but perhaps I am afraid of rocking the boat certainly DM's rages aren't fun for anyone. Or maybe it is not bad enough to consider upsetting things for...

I sympathise. I never wanted DH to rock the boat, because my parents were dd's only GPs. I now wish I had let him tackle her before I did. But it's a very personal situation and as you say, there is definitely a Narc spectrum. It's good that you're considering things.

If I were you, I would support your DH in going very LC/NC with your mother, and just ignore it.

I would discuss in minute detail exactly what he fears in your DM regards to the DDs - at the ages they are now, and the examples you've given, it certainly doesn't sound like damaging favouritism to me, but if he is sufficiently concerned about it to want to cut DDs contact entirely with their GPs - who they don't see that much anyway - then it must be really quite bad, or your DH is reactionary and perhaps a touch "my way or the high way" about it. Words on a screen are not conveying either really.

Once I had a handle on exactly what my DHs fears were re DDs, I would then try to come up with a plan he was happy with that limited contact but did not take the nuclear option.

Don't go on holiday with them again. That's easy to avoid.

Your DH can be working away/out with his mates etc for as long as he likes when your DPs visit. If your DM notices, then you'll have to say "DM he finds you very hard to be around, and the argument on holiday where you kept needling him was the last straw, so he's limiting being around you." And then when she cries and rages, you can practise your grey-rock(ing)...

Thank you all for your help. I have been watching vids on grey rock and it seems ideal. Cut off the supply of drama and make DM feel like it is her idea to distance. Though clearly it doesn't work in every situation.

Thedevil - I agree that we are both hiding from this to an extent. Won't go into details about DH's but both of our upbringings come into play here. We find it hard to confront these things for various reasons but it gets to a point when you can't ignore it any more (i.e. when it impacts dcs)

I disagree that I don't give him credit for putting up with DM all this time. We have regularly have light-hearted "who has the worst DM" competitions - MIL isn't a narc but can do PA for England - though I am winning at the moment .

Nosquirrels - yes I think you're right. The truth is somewhere between your 2 scenarios I expect, but I need to understand the issues more. When I try and probe he usually says "I just don't like her". I am going to discuss with him tonight, and try and get him to read this thread...

So many posters trying to blame the DH

If this were reversed it would be a DH problem, So in this case its a DW problem.

Not his circus not his monkeys.

OP this is for you put the boundaries in place.

I really feel for you. You are in a very difficult situation. However imho, she's your mother therefore she's your responsibility and your problem. You can't force or expect your DH to continue a relationship with a narcissist. She clearly isn't very nice if you had to have therapy to deal with her behaviour.

DH and I had what I considered a very good respectful relationship with my MIL and FIL. FIL is lovely but will stick by MIL not matter what. Don't blame him they have been together forever. After DD was born over a of three year period MIL turned into a nightmare culminating in us having a huge argument a few months ago (thread of its own). Like your DH I made it clear to DH I did not want any further contact with MIL. MIL is fully aware I want a more distant relationship. I wouldn't stop her seeing DD but she has to respect our rules or contact will be limited. My contact is now very limited with PIL and all communication is done through DH. I don't expect DH to go no contact with his parents. They are his parents and he can deal with them how he wants. For DH sake I will see her for a few hours on Christmas Day, attend a lunch/dinner for PIL birthdays but that's it. We are due to go away for 10 days and they normally come for a few days but that will not be happening this time. I won't put myself in that position. MIL is trying to get things back to normal but I am not willing to go back because she won't change. From the brief information your mother sounds the same as my MIL. She won't change and it's unfair to expect your DH to shut up and put up.

There is no harm in children learning how to get along with people of all different sorts. Maybe reduce the contact to something that is OK for your nuclear family - but NC sends out the wrong message to the children.

I am sure your mum did her best within her personality and life experiences, just as you are doing with your parenting. All of us fall short of perfection - we are all human.

I am all for the middle ground in this situation - children need to see that life and people are not perfect, but they all deserve to be treated with respect and with tolerance for foibles. You may find yourself on the other end of this situation one day!!!

Thanks zebra. Has your DH explained your feelings to her? If so how did she react? Or does he just make excuses for you each time you are not present? How did you get out of them joining you on holiday?