Big row between DH and my DM. AIBU or is he?

[Stuckbetweenrockandpita]

Namechanged as this may out me to friends. Will try and keep this short but not end up dripfeeding!

Background is my mum is a bit of a PITA. Narc tendancies definitely - she's pretty self-absorbed, super defensive when criticised, thinks she is right and everyone else is wrong etc etc. But she's not THAT bad, certainly not as bad as some of the descriptions of narcs I have read on here. I didn't get on well with her as a teen but nowadays we get on fine - speak at least once a week and she is generally supportive and a decent listener. Sometimes she is judgemental and I can't tell her everything, e.g. she is v critical of anyone on anti-ds, so I never discuss things like that. But I do talk to her more often than friends. She is my mum after all and a mum will always care more about little things than friends will.

She loves my 2 DDs and they love seeing her too. However she is not exactly brilliant with them. She's not great at playing, tires easily and after a while they always end up in front of the TV. She also clearly favours DD1 - not to the extent she doesn't love DD2, but DD2 does end up being told off more often (despite the fact DD1 is much more challenging! so it's not about good behaviour), and for example while out with both of them may say things like "DD1, look at that swan!". DD2 is only 3 and doesn't seem to have noticed yet, but she will.

Long story short, DH has put up with her for 13 years, but on a recent holiday they had a barney. It was over something minor, but was clearly his pent up frustration about her having to be right about everything. Since then, she has ignored it and has indicated she will pretend it never happened. DH however has decided he doesn't want to see her again, and ideally doesn't want the DDs to either. Of course he won't tell her that though, so it would be up to me to tell her and deal with the consequences (which we all know will be a narcisstic rage). Plus she'd be understandably upset if we took away contact with her only DGCs.

I have considered NC before, but decided against it, partly because our relationship isn't all bad and on balance I feel it is positive. That, and I don't want to destroy relationship with my DF. Or my DDs relationship with their DGPs. My gran clearly favoured a cousin of mine, and also wasn't the easiest woman, but I'm still glad that I had her in my life, so I'm not convinced that stopping contact is the best thing for the girls either.

Any advice? I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing. After all MIL is no picnic but I put up with her! Is DH being U or even childish for refusing to see his MIL, and by assuming there will be no fallout, or more likely just leaving me to deal with it? Or AIBU for forcing him to see someone he really dislikes, or forcing him to have the confrontation himself?

Either way I feel like it will be horrible. DM is pretty blind to these things and doesn't seem to have noticed he is avoiding her, but DF has and has been asking me about it. It's going to start being obvious soon and I don't know what to do... TIA

The contact with the DDs depends on whether you can recognise the behaviour and protect them from it.

FIL has had really damaging behaviour with the other GCs (he called one an idiot, for example, and had a rant about his behaviour that got very nasty). I have told DH that he can see DD but will never be alone with her and if I feel that he is emotionally dangerous to her, he won't see her again. I tell him when he's getting close and he listens. Because he has received the message that nothing will be tolerated.

The issue is that you don't see or don't mind the behaviour.

Thank you badtasteflump - you are one of the few who has sounded sympathetic!

OP my practical advice is to do a bit of googling and read up on having a narcissistic mother, and what you can do to try and diffuse the situation you find yourself in. It's hard though - if she truly is narcissistic, she won't let you - or your DH/DC - just 'ignore' her without a big, big drama.

TY (xposted)

Your husband has put up with 13 years of upset, hurt and abuse. He should not be forced to suck it up and he should not get crap for trying to protect his children from getting similar treatment.
Do you even love your husband? You want him to shut up and take abuse and don't think 13 years is enough. You are lucky as I would have filed for divorce by now. Is your mother worth losing your husband for?
Your daughters will start noticing that there is a favourite. This could well damage their relationship with each other. Is your mother worth risking that?
I am no contact with family. I know about the guilt and the pain that goes with that but I had to protect my kids and myself from my family. Your children should always come first.

"Not sure why people keep saying I can't see it, I started a thread about it!!"

Well, not quite, you started a thread asking whether your DH is being unreasonable and thinking he should "suck it up."

I get that she's family, but all toxic people are related to somebody, it doesn't mean they are good to have in your life. You chose to make your DH your family and have DC with him, why should your mother's bad behaviour be prioritised above his wishes? If he had not given it a good shot already I'd say he might be BU, but 13 years of seeing you obviously not standing up to her adequately is long enough I'd say.

Btw I say this as someone who went no contact with my parents for 14 years. Was hard, but ultimately better for my mental health.

I do see, and I do mind the behaviour. I could write essays on how much she has hurt, annoyed, angered and bewildered me over the years.

It doesn't mean I know the best way to deal with it, or that depriving DDs of a gran that they really do love is the best course of action...

I'd love to find a middle way. I just don't know how

When I was younger, my GP's were similar and had favourites, I accepted this as normal for some reason, them getting pocket money for sweets and I didn't etc. I wasn't spoken to much or taken for outings like them. It started to hurt eventually, and we visited every week, I wish I hadn't wasted some of my time, but I was forced to be there. When older I did try to have some kind of relationship with them, but they turned out to be nasty. The last straw was when I confided my worries to them about a relationship a family member was having (they agreed with me - it was toxic) for them to turn around and inform them of my (our!) opinion etc. Relationships like that are only detrimental every step of the way.

jesus littlemissangrypants, that was horrible. I love my husband very much

So she's self centred, likes to always be right and gives more attention to her eldest grandchild with suspected SENs.

But she is there for you more than your friends and a decent listener.

To be honest she doesn't sound that bad to me, certainly not cut-out-of-your-life bad. Does your DH have form for trying to isolate you? People with narc parents often end up with narc partners.

What does your husband think? This is a situation that you need to be united on. I suggest you talk to him and you decide a strategy together.

I think that if your DH felt you absolutely had his back here, he might be might be inclined to agree to low rather than no contact. I'm taking this from what I see as the contradiction between your agreement with him that your children would not have unsupervised contact with your children and your statement

"They only spent a few hours with her at the weekend while I had a migraine"

I can see that it was a difficult situation for you but wonder how you would have handled it, if you had been alone with them? If I were him, the 'only' in that comment would taunt me, so I would feel that I needed to make my views felt a bit more strongly, as he seems to have done.

OP - what about weaning them off her and reconnect with a friend, so they can build a similar relationship with them instead.

Okay my FIL had a favourite Grandchild, and we all knew that BUT he was scrupulously fair and never treated any of them differently (told off the same, photos stuck up the same, same money for birthdays etc.). It was just obvious in very subtle ways to the rest of us from the way he spoke, and he did try very hard.
It didn't affect my DC, as none of them were the favourite. If one had been I might have interfered if it had affected them.

FIL also lived a long way away - we still only visited for hours, it made for very long day trips (or sometimes we combined it with an overnight in a hotel and a visit somewhere else).
FIL wasn't narcissistic, but I do suspect he was on the spectrum (or had traits).

From what you have said your upbringing was disfunctional. Was the Grandmother who had favourites your mother's mother?
I also suspect that if your DD does have SN they may have a genetic basis. It will be even more crucial that you parent her carefully so she doesn't have to contend with a disfunctional family as well.

Listen to your DH. You know your mother has issues, you need to protect your children from them.
Knowing you are loved less doesn't make you hate the person, it often makes you a person pleaser etc.

OP I feel for you, I really do, but I think you may know deep down that you are flogging a dead horse with your Narc mum....

Yes your DC love their nan. But sadly children love all their relatives, including abusive ones That's why we need to protect them.

My Dsis used to see our Narc M a lot. From day 1, Narc M favoured one child over the other, and it got more and more obvious over the years. Dsis was 'scared' to confront our M because she knew she would 'go into a rage'.

Now it's at the point where the two children involved have a really volatile relationship - the favoured one is hated by her sibling who is intensely jealous of her. And the favoured one makes it clear she thinks more of her GM than her M . My sister is having horrendous problems trying to deal with it all.

I'm not saying it will turn out that way for you, but then neither did my sister

It seems to me that there are two parts here.

1. How much contact your DDs should have with their horrible grandmother. Your DH wants it reduced. How much time do you spend together? How did he phrase this to you? Have you discussed it calmly? Do you know which aspects of her behaviour he is trying to protect them from?

1. Your fear of her rage when she realises that DH isn't playing along with her shit anymore. He is happy to quietly ignore her without any big announcements. This is the correct approach with a person like your mother. Your DH is being smart. You are shit scared of her knowing that DH isn't going to roll over, which is a sign that DH is correct.

If DH continues to behave correctly your mother is going to be pissed off. Accept that. Given that DH is a good man doing the right thing, how will you cope with your mother's inappropriate reaction? Can you just let her tantrum away and ignore it?

I guess your DF doesn't stand up to her. He let her do this stuff to you for your whole life. So you have never seen a man protect you by doing the right thing.

Yes MIL knows there is a problem it has been aired but her attitude is very much "oh no one minds about that really do they" - in the end DH was pretty brutual with her because years of hints or even direct attempts to encourage her to see things from other people's view just went in one ear and out the other

We are not in a perfect situation we have merely set a set of standards for how she is expected to behave when she visits us and changed the dynamic to deliberately create situations where she has less opportunity to be difficult and when we have done this she has actually been ok

It's hard because especially for you being an only you have perhaps no other real reference point for what is acceptable or normal. Also it is entirely appropriate to turn a blind eye to little quirks or occasional bad or ill judged behaviour from family - but indulging people to believe they have a "right" to behave in a certain selfish way or make unfair demands is where it is not ok

Your DH has put in 13 years he is entitled to say "I am out" it's really how you deal with the contact between yourself and your DDs from now on

A lot to take in here, and to answer. Am still reeling from some very harsh posts suggesting I don't love my husband

Thank you tinkly for your balanced view. She is a pain but she isn't completely awful. She has good friends and they would hardly have stood by her for decades if she was all bad. Let alone DF.

As for accepting her behaviour, I have had far more arguments with her over 13 years than DH has. It is just his willingness to walk away and not deal I find hard to deal with. He does the same with his own DM - when we fell out with her, it was me who patched it up. I don't believe in sticking family together at all costs but I also don't believe in walking away when there is value to the relationship.

Badtaste - I have done a lot of reading about narc mothers, often recommended on mn. She def is one, but not as bad as some of the horror stories. But yes, she would NOT let us go quietly. It would be horrible and I'm not sure I can cope with the fallout right now. I have some other things going on, health etc, and not sure I am strong enough.

Op I'm very sorry. This thread has unfortunately hit a nerve with me. I wont comment further and I certainly didn't mean to upset you. I feel for your situation and your husbands. It can't be easy to try and do the right thing by both sides of your family.

My DP has absolutely nothing to do with my parents. He has never met them and has no idea why I still have contact. I wish I had the strength to go NC but they are both over 80 and ill.
So, I don't think your DH is being unreasonable, like my DP, he is probably more able to set boundaries and recognise bad behaviour than those of us who were raised by dysfunctional parents.

What was the barney on the recent holiday about, and how did your dh and dm behave at the time of the argument?

It could be that, if it was recent, your dh just needs some time to get over the argument and after a while he will have regained some of his patience. That's more likely to happen if he knows you are putting him and your children first though, because it sounds like you do minimise your Mums unacceptable behaviour.

Tbh , the favouritism could just be down to age - maybe she thinks the younger child is less easy to have fun with because she's so small. Idk, just a thought that it could improve with age x

mummytime - yes, narc gran was DM's DM (then again my other gran wasn't much better!). In their case, gran hugely favoured DM's younger sister. I think DM might be trying to balance things out in a weird way by ensuring DD1 doesn't get sidelined in favour of easier, younger DD2. Not trying to excuse, just understand.

DD1 has suspected ADHD that very clearly comes from elements of DH and I. DM doesn't really get it, hates any "criticism" of DD.

Badtaste - thank you for your family description and helping me understand. Sounds like it has been really hard for you too .

Runrabbit - as they live a few hours away we don't see them very often, every few months or so, but DM does expect us to visit for the odd weekend and vice versa, and spend some holidays together. Xmas, bdays etc. I have tried to discuss it with DH but we have reached a stalemate which is why I thought mn might be able to help.

But yes, I do fear her rage. And no, I don't know how I will cope with it. This is why I wish I had siblings, someone to talk this stuff through with . And no, DF does get it, but he will never ever stand up to her.

Thanks Lymmm, it sounds like you have managed a very sensible and grownup equilibrium.

thank you littlemiss, I appreciate that. Sorry that my thread hit a nerve

Hi. You asked if anyone would stop contact over favouritism... I have two children. My Godmother who I am extremely close to favours one of my children, absolutely adores them. Not interested in dc2. She has no children of her own.

This is so damaging. I could see it would hurt a) the relationship between the two children and b) the self esteem of dc2 so I had to nip it in the bud.

If I am honest, I am also feeling hurt because I just assumed she would adore any children I had or would at least be interested in them. If it was only me hurting i could probably suck it up but because it is hurting my children it is absolutely unacceptable to me so I had to woman up and do something to make it change.

I decided to meet her 1:1 and talk to her. She admitted it but tried to laugh it off as dc1 was just soooooo gorgeous /one of a kind/delightful etc. Then she tried to turn it on me and said I was being 'cold' and 'when did I get so hard? ' I told her that happened when I needed to protect my children as that is my most important job as a mummy.

She now sees them only when they are both together and with me or dh. She is now trying with dc2 but it seems forced. She compliments dc2 a lot when I am there but not as much when it is only dh!

We are taking small steps and I hope she can remain in our lives but to come back to your original question then yes, I will not hesitate to cut contact if it continues. She knows this now. Ultimately her feelings do not trump the feelings of discord or negative self worth my children would be feeling for a life time.

Will you consider talking to her and seeing if she will change her behaviour? You may need to be prepared to think about LC or NC if she refuses.