Big row between DH and my DM. AIBU or is he?

[Stuckbetweenrockandpita]

Namechanged as this may out me to friends. Will try and keep this short but not end up dripfeeding!

Background is my mum is a bit of a PITA. Narc tendancies definitely - she's pretty self-absorbed, super defensive when criticised, thinks she is right and everyone else is wrong etc etc. But she's not THAT bad, certainly not as bad as some of the descriptions of narcs I have read on here. I didn't get on well with her as a teen but nowadays we get on fine - speak at least once a week and she is generally supportive and a decent listener. Sometimes she is judgemental and I can't tell her everything, e.g. she is v critical of anyone on anti-ds, so I never discuss things like that. But I do talk to her more often than friends. She is my mum after all and a mum will always care more about little things than friends will.

She loves my 2 DDs and they love seeing her too. However she is not exactly brilliant with them. She's not great at playing, tires easily and after a while they always end up in front of the TV. She also clearly favours DD1 - not to the extent she doesn't love DD2, but DD2 does end up being told off more often (despite the fact DD1 is much more challenging! so it's not about good behaviour), and for example while out with both of them may say things like "DD1, look at that swan!". DD2 is only 3 and doesn't seem to have noticed yet, but she will.

Long story short, DH has put up with her for 13 years, but on a recent holiday they had a barney. It was over something minor, but was clearly his pent up frustration about her having to be right about everything. Since then, she has ignored it and has indicated she will pretend it never happened. DH however has decided he doesn't want to see her again, and ideally doesn't want the DDs to either. Of course he won't tell her that though, so it would be up to me to tell her and deal with the consequences (which we all know will be a narcisstic rage). Plus she'd be understandably upset if we took away contact with her only DGCs.

I have considered NC before, but decided against it, partly because our relationship isn't all bad and on balance I feel it is positive. That, and I don't want to destroy relationship with my DF. Or my DDs relationship with their DGPs. My gran clearly favoured a cousin of mine, and also wasn't the easiest woman, but I'm still glad that I had her in my life, so I'm not convinced that stopping contact is the best thing for the girls either.

Any advice? I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing. After all MIL is no picnic but I put up with her! Is DH being U or even childish for refusing to see his MIL, and by assuming there will be no fallout, or more likely just leaving me to deal with it? Or AIBU for forcing him to see someone he really dislikes, or forcing him to have the confrontation himself?

Either way I feel like it will be horrible. DM is pretty blind to these things and doesn't seem to have noticed he is avoiding her, but DF has and has been asking me about it. It's going to start being obvious soon and I don't know what to do... TIA

Being conditioned by the most powerful person in your life is NOTHING to do with cleverness, or lack of. It's natural that a Mother has immense influence over her child, especially in the formative years. Children of Narcs are trained - like dogs. Conditioned to believe that the Narc is entitled to ridicule, insult, laugh at, steal the child's self esteem etc - all done by drip feed over the course of decades.

We call it coming out of the FOG (Fear/Obligation/Guilt) if the Narc's mask falls and you see them for what they are.

It's abuse by stealth. Being "clever" is nothing to do with it.

Anyway. LC or "Grey Rock" is quite easy to do gradually. Screen your calls and don't answer every single time she phones. If she's being hurtful or manipulative on the phone, say "Oh sorry Mum, someone at the door. Must go."

Be vague about dates for future get-togethers. That sort of thing.

Ok doing some reading about grey rock/pebble. very interesting...

Yes was going to say google grey rock. Have to say it didn't work for me though. Ime narcs have spider senses about when we're finally on to them and will react badly to any attempt to disengage from them.

For me, the biggest changes were no longer caring about her approval, letting her be angry/upset/poor-me without trying to fix the situation ("oh dear, that's a shame") and being willing to make her leave / leave myself if she's pissing me off.

It is OK for her to be angry and for you to do nothing about it. You are a financially independent adult who lives far away from her. She has no actual real world power over you any more.

Grey pebble theory is an excellent way to deal with it.

To get DH on side, you could ask him to help you learn how to cope with her selfish rude behaviour. Ask him what he sees and what he thinks. Don't try to force him to enable like you and your DF even though you probably feel desperate to make him do so. Ask, listen, discuss without attempting to manipulate him into appeasing DM.

You don't have siblings but you do have a DH.

She has good friends and they would hardly have stood by her for decades if she was all bad. Let alone DF.

This is absolutely NOT true. Narcs have a real 6th sense about who they can bully and who they cannot. Most narcs are thought of as 'pillars of the community' and 'such a lovely person' because they know exactly how and when to behave. This is what makes them so difficult to fight. They cry 'poor me' to the world and say how 'mean' you are to cut them off and the deceived friends/relatives sympathize and willingly act as flying monkeys in the narcs battle with whoever steps outside the narrow path the narc has set for them. Your DH is stepping off that path and I do not blame him. It's also accepted behaviour that one does NOT 'explain' going NC with a narc because they are only too good at emotional blackmail and turning words against the speaker or twisting them to others in an attempt to garner supporters. So, again, your DH is behaving correctly in refusing to explain his position to your DM.

What do you do? You support your DH in his decision. You refuse to lie or make excuses for his absence. You refuse to engage with your DM about his decision. You refuse to intercede, justify, or explain. You take YOURSELF OUT OF THE EQUATION ("DM, DH is an adult and makes his own decisions. I'm staying out of it"). You refuse to listen to her criticize him AND refuse to allow her to speak ill of him in front of your children AT ALL. Even a 'bland' comment such as "Oh dear, children, your daddy will not come to see your granny" is forbidden.

As far as how she treats your children, I'd first decide if it's true favouritism or if it's based on the child's personality or the age difference. I'd say my son's grandparents have had to 'tell off' DS2 more than DS1, but that's more due to the fact that DS2 was more (ahem) 'lively'. I've probably told him off more than DS1, too. Sorry if I missed it, but I don't know how old your DD1 is compared to DD2 (aged 3). My boys are almost 6 years apart and there were points when DS2 was younger (as in toddler/preschooler) that it probably would have been more likely that the grandparents might have had more 'conversation' with him simply because he was old enough to understand. But if those are not the situation with your DM, then you really do need to do something now to equalize the treatment because it will only become more noticeable as they get older. In my case, the treatment equalized as DS2 got older and more mature. I've seen second hand (through a friend and her children) how unequal treatment of children by a grandparent can affect both the 'lamb' and the 'goat'. It had lifelong effects no matter how hard she tried to mitigate it with the two children. To hear a child say on Xmas morning "Gran doesn't like me much, does she Mummy?" is truly heartbreaking.

As far as visits to your home the problem will be once your DM realizes that your DH has gone NC. At that point having them to stay with you (if that's what happens) will be impossible and they'll have to stay elsewhere.

The bottom line is that, yes, you are being put squarely between two speeding trains headed towards each other. You can't stop them. You can't change the direction. The only thing you can do is grab your children and step the hell off the tracks.

I am the scapegoat. My elder brother is the golden child. My mother is needy and a narcissig as her mother was before her. The only grandchild my maternal grandmother was interested in is the first born grandchild, my female cousin.

My mother is very immature and highly narcissistic. My dh would gladly never see or speak to my mother again. He only does so to support me. 18 months ago, my brother (golden child) decided to try to make my dd scapegoat by association. It didn't go down well with us. They basically accused her of bullying my 6'2" great oaf of a 46 yr old brother. She was only 7.5 at the time!

This event was quickly followed by brother, sil and mother ganging up on me for something ridiculous. We went NC for a few months. Both women sent me an apology letter of sorts - one was a 'sorry if' and the other was an 'I've seen the light'. And we tentatively resumed contact.

Since then, my mother (the sorry if) has slipped back into her old ways, which I've just put a stop to again today and my sil is now persona non gratis as my dd now almost 9 is frightened to death of her after her recent treatment of dd.

Perhaps your family dynamic is less toxic than mine. However, these people need dealing with and you are on very sticky ground to let things lie. You are setting your children up for all sorts of grief and knowingly and consciously passing the narcissism on unchecked. Should you not be prepared intervene, I totally support your dh in this and would seek to seriously reduce contact between the children and your mother.

So your DM plays favourites with your children and you allow it. Nice.

Feel like he is hiding from it and letting me deal with it all alone

That's because it's YOUR problem. It's YOUR mother and YOUR relationship with her.

He's perfectly entitled not to wish to see her, and you are perfectly entitled to continue to see her. If she asks why your husband won't see her, why don't you tell her? Are you afraid of her reaction?

As for the children, I wouldn't allow someone who preferred one of them over the other to be with them. Again, why don't you tell your mother?

I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing.

This is an awful way of seeing life and relationships.

"Attila I'm glad to know I am as simplistic as a textbook example, that makes my life an awful lot easier. I'll just consult the textbook then shall I and everything will be fine".

So you can get angry, good. There is still some fire left in you.

I just stated that you're still very much the adult child of a narcissist and your mother has you well trained.

Edit;

My boys are almost 6 years apart and there were points when DS2 was younger (as in toddler/preschooler) that it probably would have been more likely that the grandparents might have had more 'conversation' with DS1 simply because he was old enough to understand.

*Attila: "Nobody can or should tell you to go NC with your Mum because it may be unnecessary, assuming you can gradually set boundaries and manage her behaviour towards YOU".

There are major difficulties with the above approach.

Narcissists typically have poor boundaries themselves; they like to win and maintain power, and they don’t like others setting boundaries on them. They will in all likelihood ignore any boundaries that are set. After all they have encouraged the OP not to really have any with regards to them so setting boundaries anyway is going to be very difficult.

OP - I would try using the "grey rock" technique on your mother.*

Yes, you make a good point. I meant boundary setting initially as using grey rock technique. You are spot on about Narcs taking boundary setting badly!

I would also think you would not have tolerated any of this behaviour from a friend. Your mother is really no different from them.

Does your mother ever apologise or take any real responsibility for her actions?. I would think not.

Your DM and DF spending time your house on father's day? Interesting that your first thoughts were of the impact on you of cancelling and then that DH would have to avoid them for the weekend if they came. What a brilliant father's day you've planned for him.

Shouldn't the father of your children be the priority this Father's Day? Or at least a factor worth mentioning when deciding what to do?

If I were you I would tell DM that you've decided you want a family weekend just yourselves for father's day and you will come visit them the weekend after (or some other time soon).

I would also think you would not have tolerated any of this behaviour from a friend. Your mother is really no different from them.

Does your mother ever apologise or take any real responsibility for her actions?. I would think not.

OP - your mother was not a good parent to you and narcissists are deplorably bad as grandparent figures to your children. They really do over value or under value the relationship with these young people who are regarded as narcissistic supply.

www.acoarecovery.wordpress.com

I find this website really interesting. I initially looked at it to try and understand a family member, whose parents are both alcoholics. As is she. It is all based on narcissism and highly relevant for children of narcissists so I ended up reading it for me. I'm on the mailing list now and receive some new information every week.

Attila I'm sorry to be snarky, your post just came across as quite dismissive. We are all more complex than textbooks! As for fire left in me, oh yes, DH tells me I have anger issues, so that is in no doubt...

Distancecall, I'm sorry but I disagree. It's not my problem, it's our problem. When we got married we agreed to deal with life together. Same as issues with his family. Yes it is my DM but it is OUR relationship with her and OUR DCs. So I would like support from him in dealing with it. But I have an awful way of seeing life so what would I know.

The grey rock technique sounds very tempting and I will be doing a lot more reading about it.

My MIL is like your mum. I've sucked it up, basically, and we've had our ups and downs over the years.

There are many times when I was younger, angrier and child free I would've gone NC but my DH would never have allowed it (as a couple I mean)

Now, meh. All families have ups and down and NC at every argument is a daft idea. Families do have conflict but you have to learn to rub along a bit because depriving your children of a grandparent is a very serious, major decision. Some grandparents don't deserve contact but most do, and most Children benefit hugely from that relationship. It would be cruel to go no contact for something like this imo

runrabbit father's day happens to fall on DM's birthday so we were going to do a joint thing. DH and I had already discussed it and I said I would do another father's day for him the weekend before/after. wish people would give me the benefit of the doubt that I am not such a terrible wife

we postponed mother's day this year because we were busy, didn't bother me...

attila - no, she never apologises, and no I would not tolerate from a friend. But I have other friends, no other mothers

thank you mummyoflittledragon, and sorry your situation sounds so hard
I will look at that website

Acrossthepond, thank you for your posts. Your speeding trains analogy made me smile!

DD1 is 3 years older. I don't think it is that she is easier to have conversations with (due to the poss ADHD if anything she is harder), more that she came with noveltly factor of 1st DGC, which had worn off 3 years later. It may equalise, I don't know.

Thank you Stuckbetween. I'm also going to try grey rock. Thanks to those, who suggested it.

Instasista, I know, it does feel like a huge decision, not to be taken lightly. Which is why I'm finding it so hard. Some posters seem to think it's easy to walk away....

If your dh doesn't want to see her that's his choice and his right however he should have the balls to say that to her, not hide behind u to do it. I also think a compromise on the children contact should be made as they are also his children so maybe limit it to once a week (if currently it's more than that) or once a fortnight.

You don't have to walk away, you know. You believe there are many positives with having your mother in your life. It is about managing her. And possibly periods of low contact or no contact for a certain amount of time. It's about knowing you can walk away and go back again. That you have power. Not just your mother as she doesn't get to call the shots with your family.

My MIL sounds exactly like your DM. I have been NC with her for 18 months now, its bliss. Dh don;t have nay dc together though.

my dh sees her about once every 6-8 weeks, which has drastically reduced from what is was after he had therapy due to her narc behaviours. he would go nc ideally, but he doesn't want to cause any drama (and wants his inheritance).

My dh has respected my wish to go nc, although he hasn't directly told his dm thats what i'm doing. He just makes excuses for me as to why i'm not with him when he meets up with them / visits. I think they have taken the hint. Obviously if i had to see them at some kind of event etc then I would go and be polite.