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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask for a summary on the Tory v Labour stance on what to do about terrorism?

347 replies

Bearbehind · 04/06/2017 20:20

This is looking like being the most critical issue of our times at the moment despite my thoughts that Brexit was the crux of this election.

Can anyone cut through the waffle and tell us what the 2 main parties are offering to do about extremists and terrorism?

OP posts:
CivQueen · 05/06/2017 08:08

Nikephorus because Corbin actually mentioned Saudi funding as a problem. Publicly.

That's huge, you won't catch May doing that because she's just one of the same, it makes her money so she'll ignore it.

Corbyn won't ignore it. He wants that 'sensitive' report published.

ToastDemon · 05/06/2017 08:10

Pay careful attention to what is happening globally.

There's currently a bit of a to-do between Qatar and Saudi/the GCC countries. They claim it's due to Qatar's support of terrorism eg Muslim Brotherhood. In actual fact, the Trump administration and the Saudis hold identical views on Iran and the Saudis are cosying up to the Trump administration and taking advantage of that.

These are the people May is also casting our lot in with. No wonder most of the press attack Corbyn with such ferocity.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/01/whats-going-on-with-qatar/?utm_term=.1f6fc9b4d6d0

waitforitfdear · 05/06/2017 08:24

Corbyn has previously voted against all anti terror powers. Just saying

Two4One2017 · 05/06/2017 08:29

The attackers in London used a car and knives as weapons. Don't confuse selling weapons/aircraft to the Saudis with these attacks with comments like "stop selling the Saudis weapons". There are 2 different issues.

  1. Saudi are promoting salafi Islam across the world - that's what needs to be stopped - read some of the links I've posted
  1. Our private companies can make a decision about stopping selling weapons, but be clear, they are not being used in this country.

Terrorist groups thrive in chaos, where there is a mix of poor governance and poverty. Terrorist groups provide an alternative to poverty for these men who have no options in life. There are TED talks by researchers who explain this really well. In the long term we have to eradicate poverty - google UN papers to see how that is being promoted on a global scale (includes education, gender equality, promotion of human rights, supporting governance etc) - foreign AID is important here, and countries have to work together to help promote this across the world.

The vacuum left after the Iraq War and the civil war in Syria (where the West has flip flopped with its support for Assad, and now with Russia involved its a tinder box) has created the exact environment for these ideologists to set up their caliphate. If we hadn't bombed them and supported the Iraqi army to fight back, they would have continued to expand their territory - their aim is a global caliphate, and anyone who disagrees with them will get killed, burned alive, pushed off a building.

They hate us and our way of life, our values. We can't pussy foot around this - that's why an aggressive response has been the only response - to contain them and reduce their territory in the Middle East.

We could have been more hard line with returning fighters - google Liberty papers (Shami Chakrabarti (now Shadow Attorney General) used to be in charge here) and see the issues the Govt have faced being more hard line. It's the balance between civil liberties, human rights and protection.

Read papers by David Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorist legislation (until recently).

Here's FullFact re: a question raised on police funding

fullfact.org/bbcqt/2017/Mar/23

Police funding down, counter terrorism up 30%

The nature of the threat has changed over the last 5 yrs - between 2013-March 2017 there were 13 terror plots. Since March 2017 there have been 8 in 70 days. This threat is adapting and we need to aswell.

I would put way more money into counter terrorism, surveillance and I would increase powers to detain suspects (but there will be howls of outrage from the human rights campaigners). I would look at our prisons and I would listen to campaigners from Quilliam about working with the Muslim community. I would ban faith schools.

user1478518843 · 05/06/2017 08:35

Would be nice if that report into Saudi funding of UK extremism was allowed to be published...

You know, so we have have those difficult and embarrassing conversions

bruffian · 05/06/2017 08:37

This is mumsnet so...

Labour: employ 20,000 police, sort out the root issues, be lovely to everyone and stop wars

Conservative: be racist, shoot all muslims dead, control the internet

Hmm
Adrifty86 · 05/06/2017 08:38

Yes, but why was that? Did you bother to find out?

Look, all I'm saying is, if your views and information are in perfect alignment with what is in the sun and daily mail, maybe you should try to read other views?

I mean seriously, have you seen their drivel about Corbyns 'uturn' on guns? No mention of the BBC reporter being forced to retract her misrepresentation, and the video doesn't even say what they say it does.

bruffian · 05/06/2017 08:42

or more seriously - interesting reading:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40111329

iseenodust · 05/06/2017 08:48

I think anyone who thinks Diane Abbott will be quietly sidelined is deluding themselves. JC has made it clear he is staying win or lose as has a mandate from the party membership. He is not bothered by public perception and has been loyal to her. Also factor in that many Labour MPs resigned/declined to be in the shadow cabinet and he is unlikely to have a vast array of talent to choose an alternative from. Those other MPs it seems to me are more likely to want to keep their distance in the hope of being untainted when the leadership challenge comes.

Also, if he moves her for looking incompetent, the high profile clanger was the police policy announcement....which he then pretty much replicated on nursery places funding.... will he want the association in people's minds as a new prime minister? I'd put money Diane will get the reward of home secretary if Labour win.

Believeitornot · 05/06/2017 08:50

The vacuum left after the Iraq War and the civil war in Syria (where the West has flip flopped with its support for Assad, and now with Russia involved its a tinder box) has created the exact environment for these ideologists to set up their caliphate. If we hadn't bombed them and supported the Iraqi army to fight back, they would have continued to expand their territory - their aim is a global caliphate, and anyone who disagrees with them will get killed, burned alive, pushed off a building

It wasn't all rosy before the Iraq war. It's worth reading in to the region more generally - there is a history of meddling in this region which precedes the Iraq war. We as a country, among others, need to take responsibility for all of the meddling that we have done and chaos created. Look at the creation of Israel post WWII, the British empire in the Persian gulf etc etc.

I don't pretend for a second to understand the history or motives of Islamic terrorists but I would be very wary of someone who thinks they know exactly why this is happening.

Either way, I take the view that meddling and interfering got us where we are today.

Two4One2017 · 05/06/2017 09:05

Believeit - it has come about because of the perfect storm of a number of issues. Poverty, poor governance, war, climate change. Meddling and interfering has contributed...but I don't think it is solely to blame. There are many issues. Not intervening also has consequences. If we hadn't supported the Iraqis to push back ISIS, what would have happened? I'm glad I'm not having to make the decisions with the info at the time....hindsight is a great thing. It's been going on for years (across the world), but now it has arrived on our shores we are taking more notice.

Some more thoughts on what to do now in the UK:

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/four-point-plan-to-defeat-islamist-terrorists/

AllThePrettySeahorses · 05/06/2017 09:08

The constant focus on Saudi Arabia is a red herring. The amount of funding and weapons ISIS receives from them is minimal and is certainly not government authorised any more. ISIS get more aid from Turkey and Syria, although the vast majority of their money comes from bank robberies, taxes and their own oil sold via Syria etc - and most of their weapons were smuggled in from those abandoned in the Balkans.

BertrandRussell · 05/06/2017 09:09

Anyone notice that Corbyn made a significant speech last night? No? Neither did the BBC........

waitforitfdear · 05/06/2017 09:14

Oh please coukd we stop with the BBC bias to Corbyn! It's so fucking childish. The left day they are right and the right say they are left

Give it a bloody rest.

waitforitfdear · 05/06/2017 09:15

Oh please coukd we stop with the BBC bias to Corbyn! It's so fucking childish. The left day they are right and the right say they are left

Give it a bloody rest.

BertrandRussell · 05/06/2017 09:17

So why didn't they report his speech?

Charmageddon · 05/06/2017 09:20

So from Corbyn's infamous 'friends from' speech can we infer that JC PM would change the stance of referring to Hezbollah & Hamas as terrorists, and actively engage the UK govt in dialogue to pursue their cause?

waitforitfdear · 05/06/2017 09:21

Because they were reporting on s massive terrorist attack!!

The prime ministers speech would obviously take priority.

CockneyRhymer · 05/06/2017 09:23

There's an I tersting research paper here if anyone is interested - which is particular to Syria (but more widely applicable) and which gives a set of 4 drivers and 4 resistance factors to violent extremism.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.international-alert.org/sites/default/files/Syria_YouthRecruitmentExtremistGroups_EN_2016.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi_sOOsoqbUAhVLL1AKHQvdAgIQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNGRcTy8tTyWlYk8225I-7O-OhIb-A&sig2=1iPQtmt3U2tIIpeyTdgzbQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.international-alert.org/sites/default/files/Syria_YouthRecruitmentExtremistGroups_EN_2016.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi_sOOsoqbUAhVLL1AKHQvdAgIQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNGRcTy8tTyWlYk8225I-7O-OhIb-A&sig2=1iPQtmt3U2tIIpeyTdgzbQ

From a domestic policy point of view this seems like a reasonable place to start - there are other things to be done internationally.

Two4One2017 · 05/06/2017 09:24

Bertrand - a quick look at the BBC website and this came up....seems they did report his speech after all.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40153536

Charmageddon · 05/06/2017 09:26

Jeremy Corbyn's u-turns are just as outstanding as Theresa May's, if not more so.

As an irrelevant backbencher, for his entire parliamentary career he traded on the message that he:

  • opposed all anti-terror legislation
  • did not support shoot to kill
  • wanted to be inclusive with armed terrorists with no proviso that they first disarm
  • opposed the term 'Islamist extremists'
  • dismissed the idea that mosques in Britain funded by Saudi & Qatar should be investigated

This week:

  • does not oppose anti-terror legislation
  • does support shoot to kill
  • thinks that mosques in Britain funded by Saudi & Qatar should be investigated
(Am unclear on whether he's ok with the term Islamist extremist)

Quite a lot of spectacular abandoning of 'principles' going on by a man that trades on his reputation for being 'principled'.

Charmageddon · 05/06/2017 09:27

Missed one...

This week he suddenly does oppose armed terrorists

AllThePrettySeahorses · 05/06/2017 09:29

I don't believe Corbyn would order a shoot-to-kill. This is another unbelievable u-turn and totally at odds with his words even a matter of days ago. In his video, he's clearly very uncomfortable and displays a number of giveaway signs like touching his nose. He doesn't mean what he's saying. The London attack was over in 15 minutes, 8 minutes after the special unit had been called. How long will it last under Corbyn?

And another problem is that if something does happen (and by any god you do or don't believe in, I hope it doesn't) and Corbyn does nothing, he will not stand down from office. We've seen that too.