To think she's probably not in a minority with her views?

[LauraMoon]

Foolishly talked politics after many proseccos with my True Blue sister.

Now, she wouldn't air these views in public but she knows she can say it to me because I know and love her for the cunt she is.

She thinks that the only reason food bank usage has rocketed is because poor people are lazy and just want free food.

That poor people need to learn to manage their money better and not smoke, drink or have sky telly.

That everyone can afford to buy a house if they really want to, but people waste money.

That anyone can get a decent job if they really put their minds to it.

Unemployment benefits are unnecessary because people should just have insurance.

(My 'favourite') that natural selection would breed out poor and stupid people and that by having a welfare system we are fucking with the natural order of things...

The background to this is that she left school with zero GCSEs and has then worked her way up from an office junior to finance director for an international (massive, household name) company. She bought a house in her early twenties with a loan from our parents and has always been well off. She says this is because she has a good work ethic, and doesn't see anyway that it could all go wrong for her.

Conversely, I am on ESA and have never really had a career, I've been a LP on benefits and lived in a HA house. I'm married now and dh earns £££ and we own our home, but I know how tenuous that all is in reality. She left her dh a few years ago and has her dc 50/50 and doesn't understand why other lone parents would struggle.

Anyway, I feel like I've had an insight into how some other people think and I'm pretty sure her views aren't even all that uncommon.

Does anyone here want to admit to thinking like this? Or maybe you know someone who does?

It's all a bit depressing really.

what is ESA ?

Employment support allowance

It may be unpalatable for some, but aspiration generally reaps reward. Have seen many people come from nothing, but through sheer hard work and aspiration, forge good lives for themselves and their families. Having also worked in a charitable advisory role, I can sadly say that the many of the people I dealt with who were on benefits and relied on food banks, had zero aspiration, handled their money recklessly and had no concept of learning how to help themselves. Their whole physce revolved around reliance and their expectations of what could be done for them, rather than what they could do to help themselves. Whereas on the other hand, I dealt with many families who had arrived here from other countries, keen to make headway in the land of opportunity that had drawn them here. And it was often disheartening to contrast their aspirational optimism with the clueless indolence of some of our indigenous youth. It was certainly an eye opener. Yes there were some genuine cases, very worthy of the help they needed, but far too often, that was sadly not the case.

I am not going to vote Tory, but the welfare issue is difficult. There are people like 'White Dee' who milk the system and have no work ethic. That really gets my back up and I wish they would contribute instead of just taking. But it's not the whole story, there are plenty of people who desperately need help through no fault of their own. Your sister's views are extreme but certain elements are probably felt by many people, but in a milder way. Also, as PP have pointed out, it's very hypocritical for her to have those views when she had help to get there in the first place!

Graphista why are you personally attacking me?

There is no way I am going to name the FOUR people I went through school with in the 80's and still saw in the 90's and spoke to in the 00's and chatted on line with in the teens. My opinion is my own but that does not mean I'm not going to be friends with them. They chose that life, I did not.

And yes, with all the different benefits they claim, which sometimes lead on to other benefits and allowances, they can be receiving anything up to 15 thousand pound a year. More than I earn on a full, term time job.

So unless you are going to start personally attacking others on this thread the way you have attacked me, get the hell off my back.

I haven't spoken to my mother for more than ten years because she screwed the system. Every year she managed to convince a doctor that she had angina, thyroid problems, arthritis, and every year she would be signed off as disabled, which meant free car tax and disability payments. And for all those years she went out to work cash in hand.

I've been diagnosed with depression twice, medicated for it. In total I've had four weeks off work. I also have been diagnosed with sciatica, I have prescription drugs and take them only when I need them. In total, during the last ten years, I've had six weeks off work due to sciatica.

Yes, there are differing levels of pain and depression, I get that, but there are too many people who screw the system which tars many women th the same brush

Sorry, tars many people with the same brush.

My hubs was talking to me while I was trying to type. Apologies.

I know two people with similar views OP. Both started off like your sister with nothing and (partly due to talent, partly due to luck), one now a millionaire, one (younger) will be soon.

Both think poor people are just lazy / feckless.

I think some people extrapolate too much from their own life experience.

People who are successful like to imagine that their success is down entirely to their own merits, and that if people are poor or sick or disabled, it's their own fault. It shows at best a lack of imagination and at worse a profound sense of insecurity.

^ yes, this is what I was trying to say!

The thing is, for every Tory who was born with the silver spoon in their mouth (think Boris), there's another who has literally worked their socks off to get where they are and doesn't see why they should have to share the fruits of their own hard work. And to some extent that's understandable. But what they fail to take into account is that not everyone is born with the drive, brain, determination to be a success by themselves, and that just because they worked their way up from nothing doesn't mean everyone can. I'm thinking about a friend's mother. Had a domineering and abusive father, was pregnant and married at 19 to escape him, had three kids, didn't work, then husband left her, mental breakdown, recovered enough to cope but not to work. Has medical needs due to type 2 diabetes due to emotional overeating, has social anxiety, has never really worked. Suddenly was told last year she needed to be applying for jobs at age 60 when she's basically never worked, went into a huge panic and is now fighting the system to prove she is too ill to work and should keep her benefits. With a different background and personality, could she work? Yes. Might she be a happier and more fulfilled person now if she was working and paying her way? Probably. But the reality is she cannot work. She just doesn't have the confidence. And what the Tories lack is the compassion to understand that not everyone can take care of themselves. A civilised society looks after its weakest members.

This is what causes a lot of problems, the system is designed on a textbook formula, do you have a/b/c, move to the next page, do you have x/y/z, see page five and get a job.

But there are no textbook people. So the people who need the help the most, don't always get it, the people who need help for a short amount of time have to fight tooth and nail for it, and as with every system, someone will screw it.

More money is lost by huge companies registering offshore and not paying tax....perhaps people should shout really loud about that instead of hitting the poorest in society - easy to criticise the poor, vulnerable and disabled.

The thing is, for every Tory who was born with the silver spoon in their mouth (think Boris), there's another who has literally worked their socks off to get where they are and doesn't see why they should have to share the fruits of their own hard work.

Agreed. A certain family member of ours is a lifelong tory voter, voted UKIP in the last election because of 'all the people coming over here and taking our jobs'. They've been retired 20 years.

Having also worked in a charitable advisory role, I can sadly say that the many of the people I dealt with who were on benefits and relied on food banks, had zero aspiration, handled their money recklessly and had no concept of learning how to help themselves

Well, having worked in a charitable advisory role, surely you'd know the poor have little to no money to budget with in the first place?

I agree with much of it but to a lesser extent.

I do think there should be good support for truly disabled people. We should make life better with opportunities for people with learning disabilities especially as currently services are poor. Same for very physically disabled people. College opportunities, day centres, social opportunities and housing could all improve. I think a lot of people use the term disabled loosly and as a reason to not work though sadly which makes it harder for those that need it.

I have no time for food banks and think apart from exceptional circumstances like a death or illness in the family where income was low or leaving the family home due to dv, using food banks is due to poor money management & poor cooking skills.

Sorry but I also work for a household name company and I'm finding it hard to believe someone can be FD of one with no accountancy qualifications or similar. Are you saying your sister doesn't have any?!

Is there a chance she is just trying to wind you up? She's clearly bright and must be reasonably socially competent if she's done so well in her career without a single GCSEs

Nah. The country is stuffed with financially successful people who just don't get it. Regardless of their background or exam results.

'Well, having worked in a charitable advisory role, surely you'd know the poor have little to no money to budget with in the first place? '

Yes of course I do know that. I too have been in that position. But did not need to be repeatedly told that if I spent a whole months money on Cigarettes, booze and Littlewoods catalogue in the space of one week, I would not have money to feed myself, let alone 6 kids.
As I've said before, yes there are many genuine cases, but there are also far too many cases that quite simply take the p*.

She has tons of qualifications now! All funded through her work, incidentally. I think she has a Masters degree, or equivalent.

@ArseOfInfinity, , a wine shower would have been the least of his worries if he'd said that in front of any of my family, and we are in the main hippyish peace lovers.

"using food banks is due to poor money management & poor cooking skills."

Many people using food banks are in work, possibly awaiting their first pay day after being on benefits. Because as soon as you have a job most of them stop, even if you'll still be entitled to them while they 'reassess the case' so 'you don't risk an overpayment' it can take months to get them reinstated. But wages are paid a month in arrears usually. So people have at least a month to somehow live on fresh air? Meanwhile they contact their creditors and explain 'pay you when I get paid' so they're also getting into debt and when they do get paid they'll have several bills where they need to pay 2 months worth out of 2 months wages. Likewise the reverse situation where people who have just possibly very unexpectedly lost their jobs or had an accident or become seriously ill.

The op's sister would say they should have insurance cover but those on the lowest incomes can't afford to do that or insurers won't cover them! So they're also left quite possibly for several months with no income. That's happened to quite a number of people where I live where local independant businesses have gone bust, the owners haven't given ANY indication to the staff there's problems they've literally turned up to work as usual to find place locked up owners nowhere to be found. And that's even though non-payment of your staff's wages is a criminal theft in Scotland!

I wasn't attacking you writermom I was addressing the arguments you'd made and the evidence you presented to back up those arguments. After saying you personally knew people gaming the system you offered 2 examples and 1 was from a newspaper. You're now saying 4 girls from school and one ex neighbour of a relative and the lady in the paper that's 6 people out of 65 million.

It's gone from thousands per month to 15,000 pa which is just over £1000 pm. If they're managing all you claim on that I want to know where they're shopping!

I get around that, my living costs are as follows:

Rent 450
Council tax 20
Fuel 80
Internet 30
Food 350
Clothes 25
Transport 100
Tv licence 12
Phones 20
Medical supplies 30 (sadly not everything medically necessary is free these days).

1117 total. That's basics! That doesn't include school uniform (which costs more than the grant pays and children grow), shoes, haircuts, birthdays and Christmas, then honestly it feels like every other month something goes wrong or benefits get messed up and I'm really struggling.

Those figures are one adult + one teen. Of course if more than one of each costs go up significantly but the extra you get in benefits is minimal.

using food banks is due to poor money management & poor cooking skills.

How does being sanctioned for weeks at a time for spurious reasons meaning you get zero income for those weeks, mean the use of food banks is simply down to poor money management?

Then there's the people on zero hour contracts who got paid two weeks ago but have had six hours work in the last two weeks. Or worse still, none. So no money there. How have they not managed their money?

Niece's BF is on zero hours contract. Has bemoaned the hardship it causes since they got together 2 years ago and he fathered a couple more kids to add to the 3 by 2 he already had.
But instead of getting out there and trying to find better ways of supporting his family, he sits on his fat ass all day (in his socially provided flat) playing on line games for hours on end. No wonder people are sick of hearing how their hard earned taxes are spent, when the country is teeming with people like this. No qualifications, yet the thought that he could even improve on that in his spare time, (niece included!) is far from their lazy reliant agenda. My eldest daughter is in school 8.30 to 5 most days, studying hard for 4 A levels, and still manages to squeeze in an 18 hour supermarket job on top. More than they have ever done in a week between them! And when I was her age, I was doing the same. It's a mentality I'm afraid, and it is hard to have any sympathy for people like that.

Trouble is that there is a smidgen of truth in what she says. Success isn't all down to luck, there is a fair bit of focused hard work involved. I really do sympathise with people who struggle to cope, or have bad luck. I do. However, there are too many people who think that success should just 'appear' and that they don't have to sacrifice any comforts e.g. alcohol, TV, fags, going out etc. Or go the extra mile to help themselves.

Totally agree with you Jaxhog. Unless you have the luck to win the lottery, then success in whatever way it is perceived, will always require an element of effort. My late father tried his hand at various jobs/ventures growing up, and not having the luck or the business acumen to reap the rewards he so badly wanted, ended up bankrupt and we lost our home.
But we came back from that. He found another job and worked away from home for years, while my poor mother worked day & night shifts, often doubling up in a row, to make extra money. Not once did they ever think of asking for social help, even when we had to sleep on random floors, while in the middle of doing my O levels. It was an awful time, and if we could come back from that, then yes, anyone..provided they have health and good mind...can do the same.
The fact that so many people cannot see the connection between success and hard work, is a sad reflection of an increasingly dysfunctional society.