To think she's probably not in a minority with her views?

[LauraMoon]

Foolishly talked politics after many proseccos with my True Blue sister.

Now, she wouldn't air these views in public but she knows she can say it to me because I know and love her for the cunt she is.

She thinks that the only reason food bank usage has rocketed is because poor people are lazy and just want free food.

That poor people need to learn to manage their money better and not smoke, drink or have sky telly.

That everyone can afford to buy a house if they really want to, but people waste money.

That anyone can get a decent job if they really put their minds to it.

Unemployment benefits are unnecessary because people should just have insurance.

(My 'favourite') that natural selection would breed out poor and stupid people and that by having a welfare system we are fucking with the natural order of things...

The background to this is that she left school with zero GCSEs and has then worked her way up from an office junior to finance director for an international (massive, household name) company. She bought a house in her early twenties with a loan from our parents and has always been well off. She says this is because she has a good work ethic, and doesn't see anyway that it could all go wrong for her.

Conversely, I am on ESA and have never really had a career, I've been a LP on benefits and lived in a HA house. I'm married now and dh earns £££ and we own our home, but I know how tenuous that all is in reality. She left her dh a few years ago and has her dc 50/50 and doesn't understand why other lone parents would struggle.

Anyway, I feel like I've had an insight into how some other people think and I'm pretty sure her views aren't even all that uncommon.

Does anyone here want to admit to thinking like this? Or maybe you know someone who does?

It's all a bit depressing really.

The benefits there are on go into the thousands and are for many different things.

Only way this is possible is if they have a disability or one or more of their children has a disability..in which case they are hardly people to be envied. Living with a disability or having a disabled child is no walk in the park for sure. Even if they can afford a holiday or two.

How come all these people on benefits get to have 50 inch TVs, takeaways every night, holidays every year, designer clothes and full package sky tv

Short answer, they don't. Not many do outside of c5 benefits programs. Some people do recieve a LOT in benefits for sure, but these people have to have disability somewhere in the household, in which case it is correct that the state should provide a decent standard of living beyond just the basics. If no disability... they are already capped, and the cap includes rents so actual cash is not high at all...

Also these 'few girls' you went to school with who 'chose babies and benefits as their career', are they now single parents? As if they are they are likely also receiving maintenance for the children.

Are you close to these people? I mean, I don't even discuss my income with family, cannot imagine sitting telling friends where my money came from. So many on here seem to know the ins and outs of a lot of other peoples income situation (especially if benefits are involved in some way), I find this odd. Unless its just in my area where this kind of thing just is not discussed...

We don't have sky TV, we don't holiday abroad, we don't smoke or drink, we don't claim benefits, we don't pretend to be poor.

We have freeview, we have a diagnosed long term condition in our family, we only have short camping holidays, we eat healthily and shop at Aldi, we work hard, we read to our children and manage our money to the bone.

Your 'sister' can fuck right off.

Are you a journo?

I'm voting for the Labour party.

Similar situation here in terms of being poles apart politically. We recently called a truce and whilst I remain passionate and engaged in the run up to the GE it's also exhausting to be defending my left-of-centre views against my True Blue family who have no understanding or desire to open their minds just a crack to see what is happening.

If you can somehow rise above it and try to ignore your differences you can move past it but I have found/am finding it very hard too - for you.

You don't have to have a disability in the household to get thousands in benefits, hence the cap that was introduced. Plenty of ways to get round it though like working just sixteen hours.

If they really did provide just the very basics of life we wouldn't have needed the cap nor the changes to the number of children they are paid for.

You don't need Channel 5, you can find all the facts on the government website as to how much people can net.

The majority of people want a safety net for redundancy, ill health etc. What many don't want or agree with are the lifestyle claimants as it's a waste of taxpayers money that could be far better spent. The lack of personal responsibility in recent years is astounding.

You could buy her this book for Christmas, it is very readable:
www.amazon.co.uk/Hunger-Pains-Inside-Foodbank-Britain/dp/1447329112/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496516725&sr=8-1&keywords=foodbank+britain&tag=mumsnetforum-21

Thousands per month? Highly unlikely.

I'm on benefits, last holiday at all I had was when I was working. No tv at all at moment (last one £20 out charity shop but lasted over 5 years which is pretty good) not had sky since I was married almost 15 years ago and wasn't getting benefits then. (Wouldn't get sky now even if I could afford it).

Very rarely drink, never smoked, never touched drugs, don't go nights out (last was a friend's wedding over a year ago!), can't remember last time I bought clothes for either of us anywhere but primark or supermarket and actually until very recently hadn't bought new clothes for myself for about 8 months!

I've got 3p in savings and I've ) £19 to last us till Tuesday.

That allowed writermom ?

I highly doubt you actually know the WOMEN you are referring to or their circumstances as you describe them as people from school (which as you and they are my age is almost 30 years ago).

I've been accused of being 'at it' both online and irl. By people who either don't know my situation or who think mental illness & chronic physical pain is 'not a good enough reason not to work'!

I somehow think like OPs sister - because I grew up in a country where there was no such thing as benefits and it took me a while to understand what benefits were for. You see, I grew up with 'whoever does not work should not eat'.
Growing up, you worked for everything - every illness, every hospital visit, every childbirth.

I came to the UK for 'a better life' with a strong degree but took work as a door step interviewer and most of my UK friends said they'd die before they degraded themselves to that level. Remember though that if you come to the UK legally from outside the UK, you're not entitled to any benefits.

Ex-DH and I saved and paid for our IVF, I saved and paid (full fees £9000) for my own master's degree, working as a cleaner by night, admin by day and pregnant. At the end of masters, colleagues signed-on for JSA, I worked temp and contract jobs no one liked. I still had to pay for nursery. Kids went as babies so I could work.

Fast forward few years, I saved to buy my own house - a tiny one but enough for me and DCs. I earn average wage. I now get a small amount of benefits that makes very little difference. I have friends who refuse to work because the work they can get pays less than the benefits they earn so they earn more than I do by sitting at home. Yes, they go on holidays and I hang around the UK.

So I have no choice but to feel there are jobs that people can do, and that people can save if they try. There is NHS and free school so no need to pay for those! Till now, my mom can't believe the govt just 'gives away money for free' and there must be a catch and she begged me not to take anything.

I count myself lucky to live in this kind of world. A world where the sick, disabled and elderly don't have to find money to care for themselves (I agree this is good). But the able should go to work. And not consume so much.

*come to the UK from outside the EU - I meant to say.

And yes, I feel like with the amount of benefits provided to supplement work, if people spent money on actual necessities such as FOOD and needed clothing, many wouldn't need food banks.

Disabled and elderly people are not included in the above. They should get every help possible. That can happen if the rest of us go to work and live within our means.

She sounds like my mother.

Another horns and tails thread.

I do recognise that we are not all born with advantages. I, for example, do not look like Rosie Huntingdon-Whitely. Because I am likely to vote Tory, that doesn't mean I believe that the genuinely needy should be treated badly, but I also don't think that their expectations should be pitched at the level of everybody has everything. Money buys choices, and if you don't have any, then you end up with a Tesco value version. It is serviceable, but lacking the features you might choose if you were paying for it yourself and could specify your wants.

There have been studies done on empathy that showed people who'd been through a situation (e.g. redundancy) and come back from it successfully were less likely to have sympathy for someone else who was going through that and not coming back from it so well. They'd covered up the negative memories in order not to feel the pain they felt themselves whilst in the middle of it.

Oh the irony of bank of mummy and daddy! If she lived rent free in their loft she should be ashamed she didn't manage to save up to buy a house instead of a loan from parents. Is that not exactly what she complained about?

Tbh I couldnt be arsed giving the time of day to a jumped up shit like your sister and wouldn't want anything to do with her. She also sounds like she's having a massive go at you. Why you'd want her in your life I cannot imagine. Poor you, having to listen to that crap on a regular basis

I have to admit I do partially agree with your sister. I had a very difficult unstable, and at times homeless.. childhood. Left school in the 80's, could have gone to uni but had to work to help fund the family as my mother was very ill and we were living in a bedsit. I worked my up, went to night school, got a degree and professional qualifications working my butt off day after day. Supported my mum, bought a house..and the rest is history....

I cant agree that those who don't work shouldn't eat. Some people can only get zero hours shit minimum wage jobs with absolutely no security.I have seen genuine cases of food bank in dire cases where the children wouldn't eat if it weren't for food bank. I sure as hell dont want any child going hungry.

And its all very well for people who got a degree. Not everybody has the ability to do that. I think people should remember that when they recount what they've done and have pulled themselves up the ladder a bit

Well it's like this, Graphista, up to about six month ago, I was still in touch with one of them, and he used to live next door to one of my family members.

I don't speak much, unless I have an experience to share or something I personally know about. And I don't believe I said EVERY person on benefits is like that.

But as a side note, here's a story from an American 'news' site about a British woman on benefits. Take from it what you will.

awm.com/shes-been-on-welfare-for-14-years-now-thinks-shes-entitled-has-new-outrageous-demands-3/?utm_medium=partners&utm_source=shewears

"there are a few girls I went to school with who chose babies and benefits as their career. They managed to get council housing and have carpets throughout and have a holiday every year, sometimes more than one. The benefits there are on go into the thousands and are for many different things"

So you've gone from a few girls you knew 30 years ago to TWO people you don't know personally even

One is from that bastion of accuracy and fair reporting the DM and even there it's clear she has mental health issues and a back problem. Overeating is just as difficult to deal with from a mh perspective as anorexia but currently isn't afaic treated as seriously as it ought to be.

Every time someone claims they 'know' people who are 'at it' when challenged their 'knowledge' collapses.

And I certainly DON'T think America is a good example of a working welfare system AT ALL where you have Drs who won't even examine patients till they've checked their medical ins coverage, where people are SHAMED for struggling either to find work or because they are medically unable to work.

Even the article itself criticises another writer claiming there's more unemployed Americans than employed has used deliberately misleading stats!

No system is perfect not even Canada. But I'd rather have a system where a VERY small minority are able to work the system to their advantage than have one where CHILDREN are sleeping on the streets, going hungry or without clothes.

Far far more money is lost to tax dodging than benefit fraud (and the benefit fraud figures are highly dubious) yet tax dodgers are very rarely demonised the way we benefits claimants are.

The 'all very well' comment is one I also hear from my sister. While I was out working in every job I could find from the age of 14, including doing my best at school. She was lying bone idle and bed, truanting when she could, because our mother was ill and she was a 'free spirit'. She ended up on benefits with a lot of help from myself over the years. And yes, she was the archetypal benefit streeter, smoked 20 a day, drank cheap wine and stuck her kids in front of the sky box all day. While myself and my brother worked our butts off for the nice homes we have!

Most people are not horrible or evil or heartless, but just want the best for themselves and their families. Nobody really, truly votes 'for the good of society', however much they may claim to; people vote according to their own values and life experiences. There seem to be so many people dismissing Conservative voters as 'privileged assholes' who care only about themselves, and while there are certainly some like that, I think it is too simplistic and lazy thinking to label people with such views as just heartless bastards. Fwiw, the only real hate and intolerance I have seen in this campaign has come from the Left-wingers, but maybe that's just the circles I move in.

Writer..from your link

'Ms. Broom has been on public assistance for fourteen years. At nineteen, she was diagnosed with depression and lower back problems, which have become aggravated by bouts of eating disorders over the years.'

So shes on disability benefits. Takes a lot of proof that you actually are ill to get those, despite what the rags would have you think. Many seriously disabled people are denied them and then die in the weeks after being found fit for work

14 years does sound a long time to be out of work. But when illness is taken into account, its not really.

Also her 'hoping' to have the taxpayer fund her wedding...well she can keep on hoping as that won't happen. She can save up parts of her benefits for this of course but shes not going to be handed 7000 quid then a further 1500 to honeymoon. What on earth...

Not entirely sure what this link is meant to prove/say?

You don't have to have a disability in the household to get thousands in benefits, hence the cap that was introduced. Plenty of ways to get round it though like working just sixteen hours.

There either has to be a disability in the household, a very large number of children or a very high rent to come close to the cap. Not sure what the LHA rates are in London...so maybe even the high rent wouldn't do it (LHA rates here are 120 quid a week or so...so you cannot get any more housing benefit than that)

Now that the cap is there, its still rare to be anywhere close to it.

People working 16 hours aren't 'not working'. Yes they are working low hours, but this is not necessarily on purpose? Plus its only single parents who can get tax credits on 16 hours.

Don't agree with your sisters views at all but the welfare state is far from a good thing. People like mark zuckerberk would love to see everyone's basic needs provided for (what a nice man) whilst investing in machines to do all the work. Think this is a good idea? You and your sister may have opposing views but it would be wiser to see that your sister is not entirely wrong and you are not entirely right! It's possible to hear the opinions of others without being affected by them. We're all conditioned and we're all fed a steady stream of bollocks by the media. Don't let it separate you and your sister.