Telling my Tory voting mother that she should pay for my daughter to go to university.

[sociallyacceptable]

My DD is very bright and could go to university if she doesn't arse about trying to be cool like I did. She is now 12.
My mum often talks about what she might do at university when she is older. I have been considering discouraging her from going because of the cost, we cannot afford to fund it ourselves unfortunately and she will have huge debt. It's kind of light hearted but I feel like telling my Tory voting mother that she should pay for her to go as she is not interested in voting to change this.

@PersianCatLady I think I know where you are speaking about; it's a wonderful department (and faculty). One of my closest friends did their PhD there and they have done very well for themselves
Thank you. I just want him to make the most of his life and get every opportunity that he can.

He was born when I was only 20, so my life has been quite different to how I would like his to be.

Why should we all have to pay your Dds tuition fees? X that by all the other children who will also be attendding university. And the ones who wouldn't normally be interested to go but now because it's free decide they also want to go and magic up the money from where to pay for all these student's?

Uni is not for everyone, but those even thinking of discouraging their kid from going purely because of the cost are incredibly short-sighted and should perhaps try looking at the possible long-term ramifications of not attending one instead.

Well obviously she could vote Labour now as removing tuition fees is part of their manifesto.

I feel bad for your daughter and your mother.

On the bright side, your daughter has a wonderful grandmother who encourages her and builds her up. Your daughter will always remember that and will always remember your sorry attitude. Has nothing to do with politics.

I graduated just over 30 years ago now,. No tuition fees although, and it may come as shock to some on this thread, only 13-14% of 18/19 year olds actually went to uni / poly back then.

I must have been so much better off as compared with those, such as my own DS1, at Uni today.

Or was I ?

I started on a graduate scheme that paid marginally over £13k. Puts me off to a pretty good start compared with today. Adjusted for inflation that's equivalent to around £35k.

I also got a final salary pension (the younger amongst you really will need to Google to find out what that was). Added to which also non contributory for the employeee. Again not that uncommon for bigger employers back in the mid 80s.

So pretty well ahead already compared to today. However:

Income Tax basic rate back then 29% . 29% As compared with 20% today.

Personal allowance in 1986 was £2335. If that had increased in line with inflation it would have been around £6,300 in 2016. in reality it was £11,000 in 2016/17.

So around 24% of my gross pay in 1986 taken through taxation. Almost double the percentage due in 2016 on the equivalent inflation adjusted salary

NI - bit more of a minefied given the numerous changes in the mid-late 80s (and probably ever since). However, and happy to be corrected, HMRC historic NI rates suggest I would have paid around 9% on just over £11k of my gross in 1986, so marginally over £1k. Link that to inflation and you get around £2700 in 2016/17. Actual NI due on 35k salary, again based on HMRC NI calculator is around £3200.

Pension, let says if I had started work in 2016 on my £35k job I'd be contributing 5.5%.

I'd then have today student loan repayments to worry about. So 9% on £14,000 (£35000-£21000). So another £1260 to pay.

Overall then in 2016 on my £35k salary I'd have £24,179 left after all those deductions and including pension contribution). or 69.1% left.

Back in 1986, I'd have £8913 left, adjust that for inflation and a comparable figure for 2016 in £23,967. Not quite the utopia that some seem to think existed.

Of course wider context would be useful .

in October 1986 the BoE base rate was 11%, as compared with 0.25% in October 2016. Mortgage rates back in late 1986 obviously a few points higher again (and of course MIRAS had I think by then just about gone).

Flip side, house prices, even in London were far more reasonable.

I'm just not convinced all the angst about student debt is wholly justified.

Pepperer op is threatening to discourage her daughter from going to college so as to guilt her mother into funding it. Despicable, willing to say things to her daughter that will make her feel weird and uncertain about whether she's worth being educated, just to manipulate her mother.

boys3 Thank you for taking the time to write all that out.
I did my degree at the start of the 80s and I have 3 dc now, one of whom is just finisheing, and one just about to start at University.
I keep telling people the same as you in terms of the 'tax' graduates will pay if they earn a decent salary for 30 years. It's not that shocking, compared with the tax everyone was paying when we graduated, whether you'd been to university or not.

It's not a "loan" in the traditional sense at all - I am very debt adverse and very much of the thought that if you haven't got the money for something you go without it or save up for it (housing aside) so am not in any way flippant about debt, but you have to change the word to 'tax' and look at it differently.

peach and blunt

I appreciate your kind words

But the reason i was so sarky to kitty is that we know this stuff

We have looked at the websites, read the articles, sat through the college and uni meetings and used the calculator

People still worry...

But thank you

boys3

Excellent analysis - very illuminating!

Funny how some of those questioning what the big deal is were educated for free.

I wasn't, kirin. 30k worth of debt here.

Not funny at all kinrim. Merely reflective of the age demographic of MN

Friends daughter has 65k worth of debt at the moment

Think she may be doing medical stuff though

Funny how some of those questioning what the big deal is were educated for free.

I wasn't

LOL how awkward for the OP. Bitching about the Tories when it was LABOUR who introduced the uni fees.

Bet you wish a 'delete your thread' option was available eh OP?

I certainly wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and paid off £15k debt after graduation in a couple of years - not much by today's standards but if I wanted a selfish vote I've got 2 DC likely to be academic so I'd vote Corbyn on that basis, except I don't believe the 'free' tuition is fair or right for the other 50% or the best use of the money.

I wonder if some of the worry is because some kids are doing degrees that won't pay them back and the cost benefit has tipped the other way for them - you've got to be clear about whether it's in your long term best interests to do it, or not.

That doesn't mean don't do history - I did history, but you have to have some sort of a plan on what comes after. For me and many other fluffy subject graduates that was consulting.

Funny how some of those questioning what the big deal is were educated for free.

No-£30k of debt here too. It has no impact on my life at all. I have a mortgage which was not affected by the debt and the repayments are insignificant.

I think the main problem here is the word 'debt'.

It sets people off edge and makes them 'worry' as a word on its own.

When you look at it another way, £16 per month to pay for a degree ain't half bad, as a starting point.

that's all

Scotland have free tuition, RUK does not:
On Sturgeon interviewed by Andrew Neil:

1. NS: ‘We’ve also got more young people, including more of our poorest young people, going into university than has been the case before now.’

This is a UK wide shift, not specific to Scotland, where the growth in entry rates from 20 per cent most disadvantaged young people has actually been lower over last decade than England.

So in Scotland, the growth in poorer students entering university has been slower than in tuition free Scotland.

growth in poorer students entering university has been slower IN tuition free Scotland. Mangled that last bit :)

LOL how awkward for the OP. Bitching about the Tories when it was LABOUR who introduced the uni fees. grin. Bet you wish a 'delete your thread' option was available eh OP?

I think the OP's point was based on the premise that Labour want to abolish tuition fees if they win the next GE and yet her mum is choosing to vote Tory.

Of course anyone who votes Tory should pay for everyone, that's how it works.

"Overall then in 2016 on my £35k salary I'd have £24,179 left after all those deductions and including pension contribution). or 69.1% left.

Back in 1986, I'd have £8913 left, adjust that for inflation and a comparable figure for 2016 in £23,967. Not quite the utopia that some seem to think existed."

Yeah ok, poor little 80s you. That's still more than my gross pay for a job requiring postgrad qualifications (not that it really does, it's just that you'd not get it without them, it could easily be a graduate role or indeed one for someone with decent science A levels) today.

Also mortgage lenders do definitely take student debt into account as of a couple of months ago when it was entered into my mortgage application. So that's another load of bollocks.

Instead of asking "why should non-graduates 'subsidise' education?" when they fucking do benefit from having doctors, teachers, scientists, etc., let's ask "why should intelligent but not wealthy people subsidise rich, thick people?", because that's what happens currently.

OP, your mother is a dick, not sure why so few people can see that. Completely hypocritical, and does need to be told that what she's voting for will discourage people as bright as your daughter from going to uni. In fact I think that's probably what the Tories want to achieve- they're sick of bright poor people actually getting educated enough to be a challenge to them and stopping their rich stupid kids from getting all the good jobs.