Telling my Tory voting mother that she should pay for my daughter to go to university.

[sociallyacceptable]

My DD is very bright and could go to university if she doesn't arse about trying to be cool like I did. She is now 12.
My mum often talks about what she might do at university when she is older. I have been considering discouraging her from going because of the cost, we cannot afford to fund it ourselves unfortunately and she will have huge debt. It's kind of light hearted but I feel like telling my Tory voting mother that she should pay for her to go as she is not interested in voting to change this.

From what I read on here - I would not use this formum as my source of information. Your daughter will be eligible for a student loan and can also work part time - fess are NOT paid up front but only after she leaves university and earns above £21k at the moment. The debt will be manageable and should not be a factor in deciding whetehr to go to university.

@WorldsacpeLove

I'm not sure about young parents, but as far as I'm aware there is a lot more financial support available for them. Couldn't say categorically whether it's enough as it's not something I've looked into.

London is much more expensive, granted, but the money available is increased to take that into account. I survived at Cambridge (which is also astronomically expensive) and so do recognise the stress of high living costs. During my undergrad I quite happily had two part-time jobs (loved them, genuinely feel they added a lot to my experience- perhaps I was lucky) and then one during my postgrads. I still found time to play three sports (one at uni level), run a sports club, and organise multiple uni events. I'm no magician, but it really is possible

I did have some financial support from parents- train tickets here and there, for example, so I know I was certainly not in the most difficult position. However I do also know many friends who did struggle to make ends meet- and in their cases, the university stepped in with discretionary loans and grants. I never knew anyone who had to quit due to finances, a solution was always found by the uni. You'd be surprised how much they can do when they know someone is genuinely struggling!

*Don't worry if labour get in and reverse the tuition fees then Universities will inevitably restrict course and reduce the percentage of those who go to uni.

So your DD may not even get the chance to go anyway*

Yeah....Sadly I suspect Student Number Control would be back with a vengeance if Labour got in... In fact probably back to the very old mass aggregate number thing of 20 years ago, with no de-restrictions for high grades.

Persian, just so you know in 2015 93.2% of UK domicile full-time first degree leavers were in employment and/or further study six months after graduating
Please could you give me a reference or a link for that because everywhere I am looking is quoting the UK average of around 75%.

I was particularly impressed with 93.2% because I thought it was much higher than average so I would be grateful if you could let me know where you got the figure from.

Many Thanks

Graduate destinations stats:

Leavers

She'll earn a lot more with a degree than without. Her debt will only be a tiny proportion of her increased earning capacity providing she studies a real subject.

As long as she avoids the Mickey mouse courses like 'media studies' and goes for a subject that actually has sellable skills; engineering, finance, business, law etc... Then it will be financially worth it.

I really hope you don't discourage your child, you should be encouraging her to be ambitious, not telling her there's no point and stacking shelves is all she can look forward to.

kirinm If I borrow £10k from a bank to buy a car, they will expect me to pay it back monthly over an agreed term. If I get sacked or diagnosed with a serious illness next week, the bank will still want it's money and short of going bankrupt or a formal IVA etc they will still expect me to pay them.

Not the same at all for student loans. A new graduate could spend 30 years earning a low wage, or not working at all and pay back not one penny of their student loan and then it will be written off with no hassle whatsoever. Not all will spend their working lives in graduate jobs. They may work part time and earn less than £21k, they may be unable to work for any number of reasons or may spend a lot of time as a SAHP.

Student loan repayments reduce your monthly income in the same way as taxes, your salary goes down, your graduate tax student loan payment goes down.

Yes, you might be able to borrow slightly less for a morttgage, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, as maximum income multiples can often be unaffordably high, and cause difficulties if circumstances change.

And just like living in London as a working person might not always be affordable, it's the same for a student. It's not like its always the best or only option. If you don't want to take on extra debt, don't choose to study in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

".. so not sure why people wouldn't want their kids to go based on the loan

So my daughter is studying law. She loves it and wants to be a solicitor. She is a straight a student from a level to gcse. What should I have said. No darling it's far too expensive. Don't do what you want to do with your life. Do something you don't really enjoy. Spend your life being fucking miserable in a low paid job. Avoid the debt. That's a much better way.

Seriously?"

Yes but that's what I am saying though. The loan would not put me off at all.

For almost everyone it is a graduate tax. It sucks but so does all tax.

Just change the name and it becomes more palatable to some people and I don't understand why.

You could re-frame general taxation in the same way. For the privilege of living here you are charged say £20 million. You pay it off starting from when you earn more than 10k. The amount ratchets up the more you earn. If you stop earning you stop paying. When you die it is written off. Now if the government for their own internal book-keeping change that amount to 30 million. Or increase the interest rate from a made up 1% to 10% it does not effect how much you pay. Why would you care?

Saying it's taken into account when getting a mortgage is, again, scaremongering. Your monthly take-home pay is taken into account when it comes to affordability checks. Obviously this is lower when you're paying off your student loan. So if you're trying to borrow more than you can afford, then yes, I guess you could say that your student loan can impact your chances of getting a mortgage. But that's like saying your income tax is taken into account, or your national insurance. I have a big student loan that I pay back at an affordable rate and shock horror, I just got a mortgage!

Student loans are NOT "crippling debt". You literally don't even notice it going out, except maybe when you get a bonus and lose an annoyingly large chunk of it! It just frustrates me so much to see kids who really want to go to uni being put off by talk of "crippling debt" etc. It's NOT. You'll never pay it back if you can't afford it. Nobody will ever bang on your door if you stop making payments. It doesn't stop you from making career changes, becoming a SAHP, taking a lower-paid job or leaving the country. It doesn't stop you getting a mortgage (unless you're trying to overstretch yourself).

There are many good reasons for young people not to go to university and to take a different path, but fear about student loans is not one of them.

Can you trust the treasury / the financial sector not to change the rules and apply them retrospectively - they have form. How can it be even vaguely legal let alone fair to retrospectively change the terms of a financial contract?
Equally how can an interest rate of over 6% be anything other than extortionate when base rates have been around 0.5% for the last few years.
My annual salary in my first job after leaving uni was just about equal to my overdraft - it took me nearly 10 years to get rid of that - heavily facilitated by inflation.
40k debt hanging over you is no way to start working life - I don't know what I'll advise my daughter when the time comes but uni isn't the obvious step up it was.

Equally when I went, on full grant, the model meant that you could do subjects you were interested in - not just subjects aiming at financial reward. As a nation we had a track record for innovation - part of that had to be down to people doing things that interested them - you remove that possibility and not only quality of life drops but you turn out salarymen.

Changes like these take a long time to show - it'll be 20-30years before we see the impact.

On balance, investing in children's education has to be the best thing we can do - for them and us - saddling them with debt doesn't help them think 'society' has done anything for them - just promotes the 'me' model

I pay nearly £500pcm for student and postgraduate loans that enabled me to get into a career where I can afford to pay that much at the tender age of 39. It has taken me over 15 years post university to get to the stage where I can manage to pay my loans without it crippling me.

When I was only paying £30 a month it made a difference then too since I needed every penny I could get. Lucky you if you don't even notice it going out.

How is a loan that you are forced to take out if you want to stay in education that is then taken into account in 'affordability' checks not a debt?

Bluntness - as a solicitor, I'd never encourage my child to study law. It is a huge financial risk regardless of her grades.

is this just another thread to bash a tory supporter (your own mother?)? If so - yabvu

On another note - well done to your mum for being so encouraging to your dd.

Equally when I went, on full grant, the model meant that you could do subjects you were interested in - not just subjects aiming at financial reward

You've contradicted yourself. The current model actually deters financial reward - the more you earn the more you repay. Subjects aiming at financial reward are not encouraged by this system at all (fortunately).

Frankiestein you're another numpty who hasn't actually thought beyond a few DM soundbites aren't you.

What the fuck has the size of your overdraft when you left donkeys years ago got to do with the current loan system?

And show me the actual changes to tc and cs, as opposed to the DM version. All that changed was that the threshold salary didn't increase as was indicated in the original consultation. The terms and conditions that students signed up to has NOT been changed retrospectively, and cannot be.

Pity your university education didn't teach you to think for yourself.

like others say - Labour ended free university education - so actually if you are a Labour supporter its your responsibility to pay according to your theory!

You remind me of my mum actually, she was always against me going to uni because of the costs and I should "work and buy a house instead", and "be a legal secretary instead of a solicitor". She seems to miss the fact that if I had took that route I'd be on a near minimum wage job for my entire working life in an area which has high unemployment and legal secretary jobs for 18 year olds with no experience are extremely rare.

Even now when I earn 7x what she earns, nothing I've achieved is viewed as worthwhile because I haven't bought a house (at 28, as a single parent, in an expensive city), and constantly comes out with the "You've paid £xk in rent over the last x years, you could have owned a house by now" seemingly missing the point that I could only afford to pay that rent because I went to uni and got a career. It severely damages our relationship. Don't be that parent.

This thread really is very sad. The idea that we should only study subjects that will get us a good job rather than enrich us and society as a whole?

Also what's with the history bashing? I studied history, everyone I studied with is doing well in jobs that earn them a decent amount and enable them to pay back their loan. Oh and none of them actually work 'in history', I would rabbit on about transferable skills but I fear that would mean me turning into my dad.

Grow up OP. It's great that she's encouraging and building up your dds confidence. Stop being a petulant child to your mum

This ^
You've said yourself that you and partner are struggling financially despite working hard. Why wouldn't you encourage your dd to aim for a job / career that would pay her so much better, if she is able.
Of course there is no guarantee that getting a degree = getting a better paid job, but, if she gets a degree and then doesn't earn good money, then she won't be paying back the loan anyway.

Those who think that anyone should be able to study anything they want with no thought for the cost, exactly who do they expect to pay for it all?

Universities cost a fortune to run, probably a lot more per place than they get from tuition fees, so someone has to pay for it. Is it so bad that the person who benefits from the experience should pay? And it's only when they start to earn more anyway.

You've said yourself that you and partner are struggling financially despite working hard.

Oh yeah missed that. Perhaps if you'd gone to university you wouldn't be struggling so much....

So many factually wrong statements on this thread.

Loan repayments depend on your income, and don’t affect your credit score. The Council of Mortgage Lenders has advised
that a student loan will not impact materially on an individual’s ability to get a mortgage.

Persian

Apologies, that's 2014 data released in 2015 (although weirdly i'm sure it was 14/15 earlier) it's from HESA - www.hesa.ac.uk/news/02-07-2015/performance-indicators

I would say a department with strong links to industry is always a good sign of a strong department though, particularly if it's relevant industry links (as opposed to banking in a mech eng department)

@KittyVonCatsington I don't have loan repayments (worked fulltime instead during undergraduate) but my understanding is it affects the amount of the monthly repayments you can afford? You won't be denied a mortgage for it, but your mortgage offered maybe less- is this not correct?

There are alternatives to waitressing and stacking shelves for people who don't go to university . Most people I work with have degrees and I don't. 2 have degrees from oxford. Earn less than me.

We all benefit from a more educated population. It isn't purely a personal thing but impacts positively on society. I'm so depressed how people seem to double down so quickly. Instead of stating "we don't have that in australia but I can see how beneficial it is I wish we did" people come out with "I don't have that so why should you". We don't aspire to raise everyone up to a better quality life we nowadays seem to want to drag everyone down to what we think we had to cope with.