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"UK home to 23,000 Jihadis"

372 replies

user666999 · 27/05/2017 19:12

This is the title from a Times article today. Bloody hell. This is a shockingly high number. I find this really scary. There really needs to be some major plan rather than just more waffle from this useless Government. I just don't see how this genie can be put back in the bottle and I think things will only get worse.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

OP posts:
yellowox · 28/05/2017 03:57

Why aren't young male Hindus, Sikhs or Buddhists also blowing people up? They are ethnic minorities too so it can't be just because of racism.

BeeThirtythree · 28/05/2017 04:17

yellowox One example...when you get some Britain first idiots turning up in a town, like Rochdale today, shouting about Muslims, making degrading remarks about Muslims and targeting their hate at Muslims...the young men/teens in town, maybe popping to Topman, then meeting their multicultural group of friends for overpriced coffee...what they hear is Muslim, Muslim, Muslim. Not Sikh, Hindu...
Muslim young men could get frustrated, go home look at a few websites of these groups...and then the anger builds! So angry teen posts on Ummah.Com, calls all them racist ones 'Kuffar', oh there are others who believe this...and it continues!

Non Muslim teen, hears Muslim, Muslim,Muslim...maybe thinks, why are them Muslims so bad, all wrongdoing is their fault...look this group have leaflets and can spout lies yet convince this teen it is fact...then it continues!

The social differences between Sikhs/Hindus and Muslims can be seen in simple things...not drinking alcohol, for example...a nation of public houses, the pub is where we form 'a community', a common activity...a 'culture' not shared by Muslims (majority of). The little things add up and then we have alienated Muslim youths.

BeeThirtythree · 28/05/2017 04:32

Even within Muslim communities, the different sects are often segregated. In the smaller towns especially, mosques are built to accommodate a variety of sects,then preach their particular beliefs. Ok, so not dissimilar to churches? No.
So, this segregation along with things like 'class systems' , archaic ideas that are now disappearing slowly, mean that the idea of segregation/other is already firmly there...the identity is not just British, as it would be if you were not also X caste/X sect/British with a suffix...

Maybe my theory is way off...but (apologies I am extremely sleep deprived) my DD has a massive wall chart at nursery promoting 'British Values' and that is the action we need maybe?

SinglePringle · 28/05/2017 04:55

Great posts Moo.

FanjoForTheMammaries · 28/05/2017 06:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrsglowglow · 28/05/2017 08:29

So we've learnt that the Manchester bomber was reported for his views and there are cries of why was he allowed to walk the,streets. The Muslim community have said 'we did what was asked and reported him'. The authorities have confirmed he was one of the 500 on a watch list. But just what can the police do with this information until a crime has been committed and by then innocent lives lost? Logistics prove there is no way under current system that all these people can be safely monitored. Are we all prepared to change our laws to ensure those that do pose a threat are taken off the streets? It does seem perverse that we will carry on like this until the next killing of innocent people. Would the Muslim community be happy that this relatively small number of people be removed? Then the,question is what do we do with them? Prison where they will only get more determined? Also it is certain that mistakes will happen and completely innocent citizens accused. Where do we make the sacrifice? Future terrorist victims seem to be the sacrifice. What a mess.

UrsulaPandress · 28/05/2017 08:34

And look at how much was spent guarding Assange in the Ecuadorian Embassy.

usernamealreadytaken · 28/05/2017 08:37

Fanjo lovely article. Do we know the proportion of the London population that is Muslim? Some figures suggest around 5% on average. Ask the vulnerable young women of Rochdale about their experience of living with a 15% Muslim population.

I know some wonderful, kind Muslims. I know some wonderful kind, Christians. People come in all shapes and sizes. For those making the link between the far right white supremacists and the Christian church; just because somebody is white it does not make them a Christian, in exactly the same way that being a bit brown doesn't make you a Muslim. Attending church or mosque however is a compelling argument that a person is committed to that religion.

The whole comparison between Islamic extremism and the IRA is also, in my opinion, misguided. The Catholic Church condemned the IRA and excommunicated members. The IRA comparison is far more akin to the fight between Sunni and Shiite factions; an inter religious conflict rather than against the rest of the world. And for scale, nineteen radicalised Muslims killed more people in a couple of hours on 9/11 than the whole IRA managed in thirty six years of "the troubles". The IRA were not trying to impose their brand of religion on the rest of the world; for radicalised Muslims it is their intent to rid the world of non Muslims so that Islam will be the dominance. I'm in no doubt that this not the opinion of the vast majority of peaceful Muslims, but don't forget the words of First They Came can apply here too.

Jupitar · 28/05/2017 08:37

Well said mrs glow

Also if you lock these 500 people up in prison, how long are you going to keep them there, bearing in mind they will be even more angry and resentful when they leave. You will also need to keep them away from each other, or else the prison will become a place for resentful muslims to meet each other,

Sionella · 28/05/2017 08:38

They know that they can behave with impunity at the moment - we won't do anything except have another vigil, another pray for hashtag, another Facebook profile picture frame.

But I also don't see what else we can do. We can't deport people who were born here. We can't lock them all up - as it is, there's a lot of convicted terrorists all due out in a few years. We can't close all mosques. It's a fucking mess.

woodhill · 28/05/2017 08:56

I think it was foolish to allow so many Muslims to come and live here in the first place as some of them do not seem to integrate and I think they will become the majority eventually. Some do not want to be part of Western culture and are not tolerant of other faiths in their original countries

Don't know what the solution is but agree to keep engaging and be open. Obviously everyone is an individual.

Blappy · 28/05/2017 09:02

In one way, 3,000 is a surprisingly small number. That's barely an intake year at a single university.

Given the sheer venomous amount of hatred and anger which has existed in the UK press and society over the years, and the way the UK has behaved abroad, I'd have expected many more to be overtly radicalised at this stage.

In another it's a lot of people who are apparently completely primed, armed and ready to destroy the UK - so why haven't they? What's the hold up?

I don't think there are any easy solutions, maybe none at all without turning into a fascist police state and dictatorship - or magically resolving all conflicts in the Middle East. The former seems more likely at this stage. On a practical note we could all pay more taxes and have more money put into the police service and mental health services and so on, but no one here would really like that.

Without being too pessimistic, it's never going to go away, we're not really as enlightened as we like to think. This has all been going on for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Warfare and religious hatred and persecution and "othering".

Sometimes I think western society should teach and prepare more about death and dealing with it because one way or another, we're all going to die, and maybe if we could be less terrified of that we could tackle these things differently. But that's one of my more somber thoughts I suppose.

Umpteenthnamechange · 28/05/2017 09:08

Since we are analysing religions ..

"UK home to 23,000 Jihadis"
Blappy · 28/05/2017 09:16

Can't see that one Toast, any chance you could summarise?

mrsglowglow · 28/05/2017 09:19

Umpteen, where in the UK are there hundreds of people following those verses literally and acting on them? I take it you got the from the old testament of the bible. The problem we are faced with here is not radicalised Christians.

surferjet · 28/05/2017 09:23

They know that they can behave with impunity at the moment - we won't do anything except have another vigil, another pray for hashtag, another Facebook profile picture frame

Exactly - nothing will be done. Liberals will keep making excuses for them until we're all under their total control.

ToastDemon · 28/05/2017 09:24

Here is the article in full Blappy

"ANKARA − Salman Abedi, the suicide bomber who killed 22 people at a Manchester pop concert this week, started life advantageously enough: to parents who had fled Gadhafi’s Libya for a new life in Britain. But actually it was that kind of dislocation that would send him off kilter two decades later, says Olivier Roy, one of France’s top experts on Islamic terrorism.
“An estimated 60 percent of those who espouse violent jihadism in Europe are second-generation Muslims who have lost their connection with their country of origin and have failed to integrate into Western societies,” Roy says.
They are subject to a “process of deculturation” that leaves them ignorant of and detached from both the European society and the one of their origins. The result, Roy argues, is a dangerous “identity vacuum” in which “violent extremism thrives.”
Born in Britain in 1994, Abedi would later be drawn to violent fundamentalism after a life in limbo. On the one hand, he tried to reconnect with Libya, where he traveled shortly before this week’s attack, while on the other, he strove to emulate the same British young people he killed.
“Unlike second generations like Abedi’s, third generations are normally better integrated in the West and don’t account for more than 15 percent of homegrown jihadis,” Roy says. “Converts, who also have an approach to Islam decontextualized from any culture, account for about 25 percent of those who fall prey to violent fundamentalism.”
It’s a pattern that can be traced from second-generation Khaled Kelkal, France’s first homegrown jihadi in 1995, to the Kouachi brothers who attacked satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris in 2015. The rule also applies to foreign fighters such as Sabri Refla, the Belgian-born son of a Moroccan father and a Tunisian mother who left for Syria at 18 “after espousing an Islam completely unrelated to our background,” says his grieving mother Saliha Ben Ali.
With little if any understanding of religion or Islamic culture, young people like Abedi turn to terrorism out of a “suicidal instinct” and “a fascination for death,” Roy says. This key element is exemplified by the jihadi slogan first coined by Osama bin Laden: "We love death like you love life.”
“The large majority of Al-Qaida and Islamic State jihadis, including the Manchester attacker Abedi, commit suicide attacks not because it makes sense strategically from a military perspective or because it’s consistent with the Salafi creed,” Roy says. “These attacks don’t weaken the enemy significantly, and Islam condemns self-immolation as interference with God’s will. These kids seek death as an end-goal in itself.”
In his recent book “Jihad and Death: The Global Appeal of Islamic State," Roy argues that about 70 percent of these young people have scant knowledge of Islam, and suggests they are “radical” before even choosing Islam. He dubs them “born again Muslims” who lead libertine lives before their sudden conversion to violent fundamentalism.
“It’s the Islamification of radicalism that we need to investigate, not the radicalization of Islam,” Roy says, begging the question of why radical youths would choose violent fundamentalist Islam over other destructive creeds to engage in terrorism.
These “new radicals” embrace the Islamic State’s narrative as it’s the only radical narrative available in the “global market of fundamentalist ideologies,” Roy says. “In the past they would have been drawn, for example, to far-left political extremism.” Half of violent jihadis in France, Germany and the United States also have criminal records for petty crime, just like Abedi, who appears to have been radicalized without the involvement of the local mosque or religious community, an element that mirrors patterns in the rest of Europe.
According to Roy, while ultraconservative Salafi Islam is certainly a problem − its followers object to the basic values underpinning a tolerant and secular Western society − it shouldn’t be conflated with violent extremism. And when evaluating the origins of young men like Abedi, one shouldn’t overstate the role of Muslim revanchism in the developing world, a political strand feeding on the West’s colonial legacy and interventionism in the Middle East.
“Had he been concerned about acts of Western imperialism, he would have mentioned the British attack in Libya in 2012, making his act political in one way or another,” Roy says.
Abedi was very much part of the British youth culture he attacked, “he killed himself as part of that society,” Roy says from his office in Florence, where he’s a professor at the European University Institute. “Had he been imbued with Islamic culture and bent toward the ambition of establishing an Islamic state in the Middle East, he would have probably not have known about pop singer Ariana Grande,” Roy notes, adding that “he would have traveled to Syria or Libya instead.”
If comments by French Interior Minister Gérard Collomb are confirmed, Abedi will join the long list of returning jihadis who have struck in Europe after fighting in Syria. But Roy also notes some positive news: Hundreds of foreign fighters from Europe are seeking a safe return to Europe by turning themselves in to their embassies in Turkey, according to the Italian press.
“This means they don’t have the suicidal instincts characterizing terrorists like Abedi,” Roy says, though he warns that the “hegemony of secularism” and the rejection of “all forms of religiosity” in the West have created a spiritual vacuum that can be a breeding ground for fundamentalism."

mrsglowglow · 28/05/2017 09:34

An informative read Toast.

CrossWordSalad · 28/05/2017 09:34

In one way, 3,000 is a surprisingly small number. That's barely an intake year at a single university

I'm glad you can be relaxed about only 3,000, barely a year's university intake, given that an ex university student has just blown up children and young people in his home city.

And it's not 3,000. It's 23,000. See yesterday's Times.

Given the sheer venomous amount of hatred and anger which has existed in the UK press and society over the years, and the way the UK has behaved abroad, I'd have expected many more to be overtly radicalised at this stage

I think blaming extremist Islamism on racism, inequality or whatever and UK foreign policy is really not helpful. There is a specific ideology behind Islamist extremism, much of it from Wahabism which is actively promoted and spread by Saudi Arabia.

CrossWordSalad · 28/05/2017 09:43

Why are people talking about 3,000 not 23,000?

The 3,000 are those deemed an immediate risk. The other 20,000 are a residual risk.

From The Times

About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services. The 20,000 others have featured in previous inquiries and are categorised as posing a “residual risk”.

The two terrorists who have struck in Britain this year — Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber, and Khalid Masood, the Westminster killer — were in the pool of “former subjects of interest” and no longer subject to any surveillance

Orlantina · 28/05/2017 09:45

The other 20,000 are a residual risk

And what does that mean?

Sionella · 28/05/2017 09:45

The amount all this investigating is costing is a fucking win for them too. Imagine what else could have been done with that money for the good of society. Instead of being spunked on trying to track down those who wish to destroy it Sad

user0000000001 · 28/05/2017 09:58

What would YOU have them do?

I have absolutely no idea. But I'm not calling the government useless Confused

Blappy · 28/05/2017 09:58

Well, I am quite relaxed in that I'm not panicking Cross, that does no good. I refuse to live in terror because of all this.

And that's not a huge number compared to what it could be.

From what I can tell, the reason those 3,000 are distinguished from the larger number is because those are the ones judged to be the real threats. Those are the ones you should be concerned about.

For all we know, the others may have said something as stupid as "they got what they deserved" in a moment of anger and been reported. Not good but probably not actively ready to butcher people either.

Toast, thanks for copying that, it's really interesting and informative. I can understand the idea that "displaced, angry or suicidal person adopts an excuse" much more than "healthy and happy person is brainwashed against their will" or "muslims are evil".

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