Assisted dying

[LovelyBath77]

Please don't read if this upset you, but I think that it should be up to us when we choose to die, especially with an illness which isn;t going to get better. I don't want to have long term care and give all that money to it which could be left to my children, and definitely don't want to be in a position where you have no choice and considered incapable of making decisions.

I think there needs to be some change on this. AIBU?

The ethical debates around assisted dying are complex. One of the arguments that you here most frequently is - my body, my life and my choice which is the argument from autonomy. If you have a terminal condition you have every right to store up pills and take them. Suicide is not illegal. Where it all gets more complex is when you ask someone else to help you as technically that becomes murder.

Not all Christians are against assisted dying and there was a poll a couple of years ago that said that most were in favour. I'm not in favour as it happens but that is because I've worked in adult social care, in hospitals and hospices and have seen the dangers of pressure being put on the elderly, ill and dying to sign the consent forms so that families can avoid care home fees. The degree of financial shenanigans that go on with families misrepresenting income and ownership of property has to be seen to be believed. How much easier to agree to an injection for granny and the problem is solved. The argument against assist d dying is called consequentialism- it may be ok for some but the consequences for the vulnerable are too high.

Another consequentialist argument is that if you allow assisted dying under very strict criteria such as terminal illness with six months to live then how long before it is extended to a year, or two? Then it could be extended to illnesses that are not strictly speaking terminal but are very expensive? Where does that go in ten years or twenty?

It is complex.

If it was to happen it could become a specific medical specialist rather than something every doctor is expected to do. There are many doctors who are morally opposed to and wouldn't conduct an abortion, but there are others who are comfortable with the idea and choose to work in that field.

I'd imagine this would be the same.

I find the idea of any form of state-sanctioned killing the stuff of nightmares.

The stuff of nightmares for me is watching some one you love in appalling suffering. Everyone I know who has cared for a loved one at end of life who was in considerable pain or terrified that they might choke to death or suffocate (as in sufferers of MND) or has lost all dignity - have all said that assisted death should be legalised and those who oppose it don't know what it's like to experience the trauma of seeing a loved one go through the indignity and pain of a horrible death.

It really isn't 'state sanctioned killing' - it's not a case of doctors 'referring' people to some sort of death clinic where they'd be 'killed'. It's about accompanied or assisted suicide not being illegal and where the person accompanying would not face prosecution.

Currently the safeguarding procedure individuals have to go through before being allowed to die at Dignitas are massive. They have to provide a huge amount of paperwork to prove they are terminally ill and that the nature of the illness is such that their death might be horrible and are given endless options throughout the whole process to back out should they choose to. Their doctors don't refer them - it's an autonomous decision they make themselves and where they are treated with the utmost respect and dignity.

The problem is that it's massively expensive for people to travel to Switzerland and so the option is only available to those who have the funds - making it less available to the less affluent. It also means that people have to go whilst they are still able to travel which means having to die sooner than they might have done if they could have had an assisted death in their own country.

onemorecupofcoffeefortheroad - thank you for explaining it so much better than I did. Sorry if I muddied the waters with talk of referrals.

YANBU

The alternative for some people is suicide.

Suicide is messy, painful and devastating and lonely.

It doesn't have to be this way.

I am on the fence with this as although I agree that someone with a terminal condition should have the option of avoiding a long and drawn out 'natural death', I can also see that there would need to be an awful lot of safeguards in place to protect the vulnerable and mentally ill

As an individual it is worth writing an 'advanced directive' which states which life prolonging treatments you would NOT want to receive if you become very unwell.

thanks yellowfrog and no worries!

Greenheart, glad you came along!

It's one of those areas where we would almost all agree it is desirable for a proportion of people. However, the criteria expand over time- as can be seen in countries where it is available- and we would very likely see the growth of a culture where it is deemed selfish to hang around too long, or to use up too many resources.

I am not confident enough in our lawmakers to rely on their maintenance of a safe line.

Those of you who say suicide is an option, have you experienced the suicide of someone close to you?

I'm sympathetic to the idea that any parameters set such as months left to live could be watered down - on the other hand, that hasn't dramatically happened with abortion laws, there has been fairly little real tinkering with those since they came in.

Of course measurement on months left to live is the other problem - we've a terminally ill family member, but she could live anything up to 3 years, they don't know.

My partner is doing a PhD on the subject at the moment. In reality GPs and other medical professionals already assist people to die, its just not described that way and we aren't able to be honest about it. All of the fact based evidence supports the proposition that assisted dying, introduced with the necessary protections and processes, actually protects the vulnerable. Its an uncomfortable subject, but sadly our MPs arent brave enough to have an honest debate about it and hide behind assertions of risks that have no basis in fact.

I have a progressive condition that means that I may not be able to effect my own death unless I find a way to kill myself before I get too disabled. In other words I would have to do it early and risk missing potentially years of reasonable quality of life with my loved ones. It is impossible to predict the course of my condition.

I do not want to get to a stage where I need care. I definitely do not want to go into care home. For me that would be a living hell.

Anxiety about this definitely affects my quality of life and I wish I didn't have to think about it now.

I know that I am unlikely to be able to end my life painlessly without help and I worry about the consequences of that on anyone who I asked to assist.

I'm a burden to society and a complete waste of space. I guess I'm supposed to do this then? I already got that impression from NHS mental health "care". I wish I was worth as much as you all.

Peopl suffering trauma like me have already done this.

Superbeagle I am very sorry you have experienced that first-hand. So have I. But I would still say that the life of someone who is terminally ill and is on life support, with no prospect of recovery, still has value, yes. What is the alternative, that they are to be regarded as less than human?

BBCNewsRave - NO!! You are not a burden or a waste of space - no person is that, no matter how much care and support they require. You are worth every bit as much as anyone else.

Assisted dying is to help people who are suffering and dying anyway - it is not, absolutely not, meant to make people feel they are obliged to do it because they feel they are a burden.

If there is anything we can do to help (the people on mumsnet are very good at offering support and advice), please do reach out to us. You have worth and are not a waste!

I have experienced the suicide of a close relative.
I recently lost my son in a horrific accident.
I have also watched a dearly loved family member die a slow and painful death from neglect in a NHS hospital.

All of those things inform my decision about my own future.

Why are people suggesting that this would force people to kill themselves? Any process that allowed assisted suicide would require sign-off by highly qualified medical (including pschological) professionals (more than one), who would need to sign-off that the person was making the decision for valid reasons and was properly informed of options etc. In countries that allow it, there is a requirement for in-depth counselling beforehand which frequently helps people to resolve issues that mean they decide they do not want to kill themselves and their quality of life actually improves as a result.

Those who state that there are sanctity of life issues etc. - You won't be required to kill yourself, so your views on sanctity of life etc. are perfectly respected. But your views should not impact what somebody else chooses to do with their lives.

In places where assisted suicide is legal, it has to be for severe health reasons. Its not frivolous. Its the patients choice to opt in, its not forced on anyone.
And as with abortion, doctors can opt in or out, depending on their beliefs. Its not compulsory for them to supply the drugs.

I disagree with the consequentialist arguments against assisted dying. Checks and safeguards are possible.

i can see why this issue hasn't moved - it gives me pause that the testimony of many people that have worked with individuals in this situation talk about how easily manipulated they are, especially when money comes into the picture.

And also BBCs post about sending unintended signals to vulnerable people.

I also wonder about whether statements about illness made now would reflect what you wanted at the time it came to be enforced. I might write a will now saying I do not want to live with dementia, but there is perhaps not a nice neat transition from being ok to being severely impacted by dementia, and I could still want to live at the time that I'm somewhat demented, if that makes sense.

Counselling is fudge-able too - I could convince any counselor that something was my choice when I felt it was the right thing to do - but I might arrive at the belief it's the right thing to do if I could see my daughters are struggling to look after me and feeling burdened.

I agree, it's complex, although I feel that something limited and paramterized could work.

I agree with a lot of what you say Shamoo The trouble is though, in those countries that allow it (excluding US as I am not sure about how it works there) the health services are properly funded (obligatory insurance that is means tested and run by non-profit-making state regulated companies). I would hazard a guess that great care and provision of counselling would be available in some NHS post codes and not in others. Funding decisions already play a huge part in medical treatment and provision of drugs etc. Why wouldn't the same influences prevail with respect to euthanasia.

As I said previously though, I am still undecided.

shamoo can you not see that the existence of a law which allows assisted dying could result in people with very high care needs feeling guilty and potentially obliged to go down that route to release their family from the financial, emotional and physical burden of caring for them?

Safeguards would need to be extremely robust to avoid the above

I am sorry for your many losses Endoftheline

BBC I am sorry that you are in such a bad place, but this thread is really not about getting rid of people who are a burden. It is about a persons right to end their own life when that life is a burden to themselves.
Everyone who has posted is anxious to protect the vulnerable from pressure to choose euthanasia. It should only and always be up to the individual - it is their life and their choice IMO.
Absolutely no-one has suggested or even hinted that anyone should be euthanized because they are any kind of burden.