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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

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MrsJayy · 17/05/2017 09:10

Thing that makes me laugh is the i dont need a gender label i am non binary urrrrrmmmm label Grin . It is a trend from David bowie to boy george to Annie Lennox did it long before Ruby Rose

Original poster
MissBax · 17/05/2017 09:10

Topas - indeed. Remember Rachel Dolezal - white woman who identified as black?? She was mocked and people recognised that she had somewhat of an identity crisis. How is this different?
I watched The Big Questions a while back and there was a woman on there wearing makeup and dressed "feminine" who said she was offended that people called her "she" or "her". She even was trying to bring a case for discrimination to her work place because they referred to her as such.

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BluePeppers · 17/05/2017 09:12

Actually this gender neutral might help us.
I would be quite happy to say I am a woman (biology) but gender neutral (I do not and will not fit in the conventions of what a woman is or isn't).

Having a tick against gender neutral on all those forms would also stop companies etc... being able to target people according to their gender (see advert designed to appleas to men/women etc...).
I would be happy with that.

LaContessaDiPlump · 17/05/2017 09:13

Within the two sexes you have various gender stereotypes. Many people break these and have done since the dawn of
time. Women who like football, cars, climbing trees, dressing for comfort and fancy other women. They are still as much a woman as anyone else. And there are men who like make-up, dancing, dressing prettily and other men. They are still as much men as anyone else.

I'd much prefer us to break down the ridiculous structures of gender stereotypes and say that you can be completely yourself and not lose one jot of your masculinity or femininity. I personally think that is far more progressive than having to identify outside of your birth sex as if you have to somehow explain and label your personal tastes and preferences.

Just wanted to say Sandsnake said it beautifully. ^^This.

LaContessaDiPlump · 17/05/2017 09:13

Bloody bold fail - why did that not work?! Angry

Original poster
MissBax · 17/05/2017 09:14

Blue - I agree with that actually. But I think it should just be assumed that none of us fit the stereotypes of our sex anyway.

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Original poster
MissBax · 17/05/2017 09:15

X post - I couldn't have put it better than Sandsnake myself!

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SoupDragon · 17/05/2017 09:16

I had never given it a second thought until the whole trans/binary/gender neutral stuff exploded. I know I am a woman, the god awful periods and irritating breasts make that clear, but I don't actually "identify" as being anything at all. I don't give it a second thought, I just get on with being me.

TinyRick · 17/05/2017 09:16

There isn't a prevalent mainstream 'alternative scene'. The last such one was Emo. Which from what I have seen in the young trans youtube blogs they would be part of that scene if they were born just 10 years earlier.

But I get shouted at for even merely suggesting that 'teen tribes' and 'social contagion in teens' are real concepts.

FurryLittleTwerp · 17/05/2017 09:16

Topas agree about the "looking for reasons to be offended"

I also know someone who gets offended if you don't refer to them as "them" or "it". They no longer use a "feminine" name, having changed to a neutral one neutral in pronunciation but if you see it written it is obvious that their sex is female

Of course "them" is & always has been acceptable as a single gender-neutral pronoun, as well as a plural one, agreed, although not usually used if you know the sex of the person, but it FFS

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 17/05/2017 09:18

'stopfuckingshoutingatme

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39881527

a trans Pakistani died in Riyadh after being beaten to death with hosepipes by the "military police", they said he had a weak heart .

was this person a special snowflake then?'

That person wasn't non-binary, they were trans. The two things are not the same, and conflating them does a disservice to people who have a distressing condition. Non-binary is not a condition, it is the ordinary state for the vast majority of people, because almost non one conforms to gender stereotypes.

JudeeLevinson · 17/05/2017 09:19

I know of a woman who is 'non-binary' and gets offended if you refer to her as 'her', 'she' - Seriously, fuck off, you're a woman and that's the correct English to use

Really, why would it be any skin off your shit to refer to them the way they have requested? I don't see the issue. Fuck Off is very strong and also telling them what they are and are not is wrong.

A friend of a friend has multiple personality disorder after a very traumatic childhood and when I go to the house sometimes she is Sophie and sometimes she is the name she was born with. Should I tell her to fuck off? I may not understand her but I sure as shit am going to respect her.

pasanda · 17/05/2017 09:19

I worked with someone the other day who was talking about her daughter by saying 'they are going to Uni', 'they get stressed about exams' etc etc. I was a bit perplexed why she kept saying 'they' Confused For a moment I thought she was talking about twins (I have twins so can identify with this). After all, 'they' refers to plural doesn't it?

But no.....she was referring to her trans neutral child/person who didn't want to identify as either male or female. Despite said person not being in the room with us, she continued to say 'they' instead of 'she', out of respect for her choice you see. This person is also going to change her name by deed poll from Rebecca to Bec as this is, apparently, more neutral.

Total and utter bollocks! This human being is female. End of. She is a she. Not a they. Be a bloody female any way you want to be, but you will still, always be female.

Railgunner1 · 17/05/2017 09:24

*a trans Pakistani died in Riyadh after being beaten to death with hosepipes by the "military police", they said he had a weak heart"
How many women get murdered daily? Especially in places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

SheRasBra · 17/05/2017 09:25

I had a conversation with my DD about the yoof of today needing to label themselves as it runs so counter to all the feminist stuff my mum drummed into me - don't let others tell you who or what you are, be whatever you want to be, don't be defined by what people tell you are male/female roles.

DD and all her friends seem so keen to pigeonhole themselves with labels that dictate everything from their musical to gender affiliations. Is this symptomatic of a lack of security among our teens and young people?

Of course there are people who are transgender, asexual, suffer with body dysmorphia and thank god we are finally acknowledging and (I hope) accepting these differences more but I do think for many teens it just seems to offer a sense of belonging to a 'group'.

JanetBrown2015 · 17/05/2017 09:26

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Topas0117 · 17/05/2017 09:27

JudeeLevinson

People choose to identity as non-binary and choose to get offended!

No one chooses to have a personality disorder, you can't compare the two.

Original poster
MissBax · 17/05/2017 09:27

Jude so if I wanted everyone to refer to me as "Lord" I wouldn't be unreasonable to do so? And could bring a discrimination charge against those who didn't conform?
I would expect (and hope) that someone would give me a slap and tell me to get a grip of myself.

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CricketRuntAndRashers · 17/05/2017 09:31

Well... I think it makes sense when talking about gender expression.

Most people's gender expression is a bit "non-binary". And if somebody strongly feels that way going by a more neutral version of their names makes sense. (Instead of Leonora that person may go by Leo or Leonne. And why not? Especially if this person sees it as for example a way of breaking the mould of gendered expectations etc)

But I just don't think gender binary is it's own gender. There is no agender, by gender etc...
I also don't think that (especially in the case of girls) claiming that they are a new, separate gender will be good for them in any way. Women have been discriminated against because they are female bodied, not because they "identify" as women.

MrsJayy · 17/05/2017 09:31

Yes I think it is a sense of belonging to a tribe. I am probably "gender neutral" but i justbob along as always but as a child/ teen it was difficult as my parents especially didnt understand my non girly ways .

JudeeLevinson · 17/05/2017 09:40

Whether they choose is or not is absolutely irrelevant, it is bad manners not to respect people for their choices, bottom line.

Yeah, I would refer to you as Lord if that's what you wanted, why wouldn't I? Respect and tolerance for difference is free, you should try it. You make yourself sound ridiculous to be honest, get with the times. I have a friend whose name is Adrian and calls himself Merlin. I may secretly think he is a twat but Merlin it is.

Orlantina · 17/05/2017 09:43

We live in a society where people are often expected to conform to a gender expectation. Clothes being the most obvious one.

If a man wanted to wear 'feminine' clothes occasionally to feel comfortable - or a woman wanted to wear 'masculine' clothes occasionally as part of their identity, society does not make that easy. Having a 'label' gets past that.

It would be great to live in a society where people could wear what they want and behave how they want without having to have a label such as trans or non binary.

PaintingByNumbers · 17/05/2017 09:44

not conforming to gender stereotypes in general is a lot more fucking serious in riyadh than some other places. usually the women who are punished/killed for non conforming though I thought?

Cutesbabasmummy · 17/05/2017 09:44

boopsy I thought exactly the same! The trans lady annoyed me because she said she was assigned to the male sex at birth - yes because she had male genitalia! The laws of life mean that 99.9% of people are biologically male or female. I don't think either of the two being interviewed did the trans population any favours.

PaintingByNumbers · 17/05/2017 09:45

mind you, I suppose that could be argued in the case of the trans woman death as well.