To think Theresa May looks rattled

[WhoIsRonniePickering]

I watched the interview she gave on BBC News. She looked nervous and shaky. Do you think she's now thinking she's made a massive mistake and misjudged the Corbyn juggernaut? She looked like she was thinking "fcccccccccccccck."

Piglet, matter of interest - do you think the rich should pay for NHS, state education etc? I agree it is the logical outcome of 'cb, state pension etc should be meanstested', but it is an unusual view at the moment!

Yes. They do continue to pay tax as they should. Especially if they have a work pension.

Pensions imo shouldn't be means tested but the add ons should be.

"It means that Gertrude with her £3m home will need to put that towards her social care costs at home, and not receive WFA to supplement her £75k pension from her late banker husband, nor will she be guaranteed a 2.5% state pension increase even if average earnings and inflation remain at 1%. Mavis in a council flat and a state pension won't pay a penny for her care and get her WFA. "

Gertrude is a very rare person though. Anne with her £190k home will have to put £90k of that towards her social care costs and not receive WFA to supplement her ??pension of ?? - where will the means test threshold be set? If it's at pension credit level, which is the simplest to administer, that is considerably less than £75k! And who decides at what level someone 'needs' the extra £200?

The wealthy will be able to shelter their money. So Cameron will be able to inherit a nice tidy pile from his mother, because his family knew and could afford to order their financial affairs to do so; whereas my MIL although a good money manager on a small income, had neither the financial sophistication nor the means to be able to work 'tax planning' or wheezes for the wealthy.

I think it is interesting that they have finally targeted pensioners who have been mostly protected from the excesses of austerity so far. Does this demonstrate uber-confidence (wealthy pensioners are usually the heartbeat of the Tory vote) or desperation (we've cut everything we can and the debt still rises and that's without Brexit yet!). Hmmm.

"I don't understand why we would pay for people that don't need to be paid for - whether it's university tuition, school meals, social care or pensions - let's use taxes on people actually in need."

What about NHS and state education nolottery - the logical conclusion is why should we pay for people that could pay for themselves? Should we be charging higher earners for those? (sorry, broken record anti-means testing again, but it puzzles me.)

(University tuition is particularly strange as its means tested on the income of the parents of an adult, but that is a separate issue.)

" Does this demonstrate uber-confidence (wealthy pensioners are usually the heartbeat of the Tory vote)"

A most interesting question. It is taking a risk with con voter turnout in my view. On the other hand those affected may take the view that things could be worse so they'd better still vote. And of course by no means all pensioners ever need social care, so the effect of that means test will be limited.

That might be a conclusion of that argument but in my mind, primary/secondary education, the NHS, social care and benefits are the core state services which are under pressure due to the ageing population. We should means test whatever else we can and examine it closely to fund these properly and have people that can pay, pay.

And really, plenty of high earners already have private health and private education - (I accept that both of these especially health benefit from public sector trained staff etc).

What's your alternative solution for the ageing population and massive pressure on NHS and pensions? I'll leave this here until people start engaging.

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9219

It is taking a risk with con voter turnout in my view

I don't think they are at all.

The pension age demographic is the one that votes come rain or shine. Which is why Labour for example, worry if on polling day it's raining.

We have discussed the IFS agenda haven't we?

Will be interesting to see what Labour will add to their manifesto now it will get less attention as the Tories release theirs and the shift in attention will be back to the Tories

I am guessing more promises shall be given more rallies organised

This type of politics appeals to only a few of the electorate the Tories know this and will no doubt allow Corbyn to bask in this attention for now

I agree juggernaut is frightening. At least two town he has appeared in have been gridlocked and packed out.

Let's not forget the effect his leadership candidacy had on labour membership, and also the amazingly different approach to PMQs.

On social media wide shots of JCs crowds compared to wide shots of TMs crowds are doing the rounds..it's like Arab Spring v a couple of church fetes...

And of course by no means all pensioners ever need social care, so the effect of that means test will be limited.

The thing is, you don't know. I have known elderly people be as fit as fiddles apparently, when something like a fall, or catching flu knocks them sideways, and they never fully recover.

Since the state pension is taxable, why not pay the benefits to all, but have proper tax bands? As we used to.

On social media wide shots of JCs crowds compared to wide shots of TMs crowds are doing the rounds..it's like Arab Spring v a couple of church fetes

There have been some analysis done on this.

Corbyn seems to be campaigning in mainly Labour heartlands whereas May and Farron are mainly campaigning in marginals.

It is why people are speculating that Corbyn is doing it to sure up his vote when there is another leadership challenge after the GE.

"The pension age demographic is the one that votes come rain or shine."

yes, the risk will probably pay off - and also there are who may even vote con because of the changes. And means testing is not unpopular these days.

"What's your alternative solution for the ageing population and massive pressure on NHS and pensions? I'll leave this here until people start engaging."

Yes, that's a very reasonable question! I am just not convinced about the 'timebomb'. Why? Because we have had an 'ageing population' since WW1, in the sense that the ratio of pensioner to working person has increased phenomenally - yet today everyone is so much richer than in 1918. Increases in productivity, technological change meaning a lot of work is less labour-intensive, have meant that we have been able to support an ageing population so far. There is no reason why productivity increases and tech change will now just stop. (I do recognise the increasing costs of complex health conditions in the elderly - but hope springs eternal. Oh, and the oil price)

"And of course by no means all pensioners ever need social care, so the effect of that means test will be limited.

The thing is, you don't know. I have known elderly people be as fit as fiddles apparently, when something like a fall, or catching flu knocks them sideways, and they never fully recover."

Oh I agree Peregrina. I just think that in electoral terms the impact may well be limited - because it is not an immediate hit but a speculative one (unlike a tax rise or benefit cut).

How about collecting tax from the tax dodging Amazon and Co? Why collect it from the sick, elderly and disabled? When it comes down to it, we have chosen to make those groups bear the brunt of austerity, because people keep voting the Tories in.

Good job they have such a lead in the polls.

The social care stuff has been put in NOW for that reason.

Something has to be done, it is an unpalatable truth that someone has to pay for social care, and it should be those who use it and that can pay for it who do so.

MIL for instance is living in a £300k house and pleading poverty - yes she is cash poor, but she has the ability - but no inclination - to do something about it. This will make her vote Labour but also actually have to think about things.

How about collecting tax from the tax dodging Amazon and Co?

If you think they are tax "dodging" now (hint there not, they are legally avoiding, just wait to see what happens if Labour get in.
(thats ignoring the tory policies that has closed some of the loopholes more than labour ever did)

Why collect it from the elderly?

For months its been, they only look after the pensioners and "what about the triple lock??!!" now they are targeting them, its still not good enough...

At least we only have 21 more days of this..

Gertrude is a very rare person though

Gertrude has her assets off shore or in trust to grandchildren because Gertrude can afford a good will writer. My in laws are not quite Gertrude but close. They have disinherited their kids (who will have to pay to their social care through tax and looking after them). The grandkids benefit but there is a lost generation. My parents who are considerably less well off will be the ones caught out because it ultimately comes down to how wealthy you look on paper rather than how wealthy you actually are. It's a con.

What could your mil do about it beyone - is it that she could move to a cheaper house? I suppose that would free up housing so would be a 'public good' - but there are downsides to moving when older, leaving your neighbours, familiar surroundings etc. Plus dead costs like stamp duty (above a certain level), legal costs, moving costs.

I think moving when older can also sometimes be the 'trigger' for further cognitive decline etc, though that is anecdotal rather than based on anything I've read, and obviously it depends on the individual! Certainly there is a point at which i think it's better in health terms just to stay put if at all possible.

The reason means testing pension benefits has not been done to date is because it is going to cost more to do that than it will save. Sounds good to voters though.

The reason means testing pension benefits has not been done to date is because it is going to cost more to do that than it will save.

I think in the past it has depended on how it was done and what the level was. Some ways of doing it are a heck of a lot cheaper than others.

She can face a confrontation and remain calm

Of course she can. Any examples?

"For months its been, they only look after the pensioners and "what about the triple lock??!!" now they are targeting them, its still not good enough..."

Months? Years, you mean! A favourite subject on mn since at least 2010.

"My parents who are considerably less well off will be the ones caught out because it ultimately comes down to how wealthy you look on paper rather than how wealthy you actually are." The squeezed middle.

If you think they are tax "dodging" now (hint there not, they are legally avoiding

You guys are trying desperately to sweep the fact that Tory debt has risen...and keeps rising under the rug.

All of these things you mention, all of the dangerous cuts in this spite-filled manifesto, and still the debt (the Tory measure of success) rises and rises and rises.

Is it really about the debt? What are you really after?

Has God told you something?