to think there can be no justification for not allowing trousers for primary girls

[Napoliforte]

DD never wears skirts or dresses outside of school, she wears jeans and leggings and trousers and shorts. At school she's forced to wear a school skirt, and as of half term, a summer dress. We asked could she wear trousers, or the tracksuit joggers she has for PE, or smart shorts, but all were rejected. They are not seen as "smart" or traditional. AIBU to think this is silly and very sexist?

I'd almost be tempted to tell them that your DD doesn't have a gender as she's too young to decide what to identify as so will not be sticking to either girls or boys uniforms but will be mix and matching the two

Little girls don't care about anyone seeing their underwear even if it does appear and bigger girls don't want to do cartwheels on the grass. This is you imposing your own issues. I find skirts really comfortable.

I see, so you're saying my experience of caring very much about people seeing my underwear is me 'imposing my own issues' and then in the next sentence saying YOU find skirts really comfortable. Riiight.

Heels in the work place have nothing to do with uniform at primary school but whilst you're talking about the work place, my husband has to wear a "tailored suit with matching jacket and trousers. Plain shirts. No visible tattoos, no piercings. Naturally coloured hair in an appropriate style. Muted ties (preferably plain)" and a couple of other quite strict rules. Women have to wear, "smart and appropriate business attire" giving them everything from a skirt suit to a smart dress to trousers and a blouse.

I said that in the majority of situations it works the other way. The reason this is relevant is because it demonstrates that girls grow up into women who then have certain dress codes that people judge them by - there've been very recent cases of people being told they must wear makeup and heels that were successfully challenged. Women ARE judged far more for what they wear than men are. It comes up in rape cases all the time, it's undeniable. It's a theme that run throughout women's lives.

*Did you never experience boys chasing you and pulling up your skirt?

No. I didn't go to school with perverts and because my experience of school and life is so similar every other person I know, I struggle to get on board with the MN idea of boys and men being abusers, degenerates and rapists by default.*

I find this very hard to believe, it's well documented. Of course it's not sexual amongst young children, they tend to know it annoys the girls so it becomes fun to do it. Nothing to do with perverts, abusers etc (own issues?!). Boys with older brothers overhear a lot of things.

We are talking about uniform as opposed to appearance, but I'll assume you meant them synonymously (that's a hard word to spell!).

Your clothing is part of your appearance, obviously.

Firstly, a uniform removes any form of ability to judge someone by their clothing. Instead, a person is judged on their worth rather than 'look, that's the girl whose Mum wants to prove a point and now she's in trousers'. Life would be better if we didn't judge people based on appearance but we do. There's nothing you can do about that.

This isn't about uniform vs non-uniform though, it's about uniform that isn't uniform because it's different according to gender.

It is interesting that independent schools tend to have higher student attainment and also stricter dress codes. Do they have this high attainment despite the uniform policy or is it a positive factor, do you think?

This is a wild reach at best.

*Photos up skirts when a girl isn't climbing is becoming a serious issue in some schools.

No it isn't. *

Ok then...

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-probe-into-claims-inappropriate-upskirt-pictures-found-on-pupils-usb-at-northern-ireland-grammar-school-35667222.html

www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/15183275.Shock_after_pictures_taken_under_skirts_of_schoolgirls_appear_on_a_website/

www.thesun.co.uk/news/1976458/teachers-horror-after-four-pupils-were-caught-taking-pictures-up-her-skirt-during-lesson/

Railgunner

Which particular child are you talking about?

I can't help your lack of pride.

I was talking about dress codes not uniform. I don't mean a poloshirt with 'Spar' embroidered on to it but a professional job where people need to dress appropriately, not look to push the boundaries with their appearance and then wonder why their careers don't take off.

Giles

You lost me when you began talking about climbing on frames in the office in a straightjacket.

Clothes are gendered. Boys wear shorts and trousers. Girls wear dresses.

Boys and girls are different.

HTH

I think it's genuinely funny that you think choice is important and in the end your daughters wear fucking skirts. Jesus Christ!

This isn't about sexism or some kind of crusade. I'd have just as little time for a male who wanted to wear a skirt.

----------------

Will anyone answer my question?

It is interesting that independent schools tend to have higher student attainment and also stricter dress codes. Do they have this high attainment despite the uniform policy or is it a positive factor, do you think?

@MGFM
Would you walk down the isle as a woman in a wedding suit? No you wouldn't.

You wouldn't. I did. This is about people who choose (gasp!) something different to what you would choose. And they should have that option.

It is interesting that independent schools tend to have higher student attainment and also stricter dress codes. Do they have this high attainment despite the uniform policy or is it a positive factor, do you think?

Not the case. The independent school which always tops the league tables has no uniform or dress code at all in any year group. Mine has no dress code in the 6th form.

Boys should be able to wear a skirt if they want though and girls should he able to wear trousers.

Girls trousers have been on sale for years trousers are an acceptable firm of clothing for both. Dd 1 is wearing leggings im.im in jeans. See trousers. Dd2 is in shorts.

Kids at school wear a mixture of shorts trousers skirts and dresses. They are free to wear what makes them comfortable. As it should be. They both know they can wear either.

Oh, and most independent girls' schools or mixed schools I know of with uniforms allow trousers or skirts.

Girls wear dresses.

Tell that to my younger self. I would have done anything to get out of wearing a dress, I wore trouser suits to weddings and formal occasions and as soon as trousers were introduced in my primary school as uniform that was all I wore and I was much happier as a result, happiness is surely more beneficial for learning rather than some odd regimented view that girls HAVE to wear X and boys HAVE to wear Y.

Your problem is that you see girls and boys as two homogenous masses, rather than individuals in their own right.

Ha I never wore dresses either hated them.

We weren't allowed to wear trousers at school. Hated that too.

Dd1 wishes she could wear leggings to school as they are the only trousers that don't make her itch (eczema) which is why she wears a skirt but they often play sports at lunch for which they (boys included ) change Into or kits which I expect is nore down to hygiene (or shorts cooler and sweaty kids in sweaty clothing well....) They also wear pe kit to school twice a week. Hers is leggins

Which particular child are you talking about?
OP's child and every other girl who hates skirts/dresses. Just because females had been forced into them for ages doesn't mean we should continue.

I was talking about dress codes not uniform. I don't mean a poloshirt with 'Spar' embroidered on to it but a professional job where people need to dress appropriately, not look to push the boundaries with their appearance and then wonder why their careers don't take off.
I once watched interview with a high-flying city banker, who said that in his job its important to have your own style, even is its suits.
And proper professionals (i don't mean office rats and corporate slaves), but like professors, doctors, accountants, are pretty much free to wear casual. There's no obligation for women to wear a dress.

Albatross

Men and women are judged by the way they dress. All people are judged by the way they look. This isn't a feminist issue because it affects everyone.

It comes up in rape cases all the time

Is there a feminist equivalent of Godwin's Law where "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a reference to rape approaches"?

Nothing to do with perverts, abusers etc (own issues?!)

Did you just allude to me being abused? Surely you aren't quite such a low specimen as to do so. Did I misunderstand?

it's about uniform that isn't uniform because it's different according to gender.

A uniform can have varieties. Try not to be pedantic with regard to language. The army has a uniform despite different ranks wearing different things. A school uniform can include dresses and skirts for girls and trousers and shorts for boys.

Why is my question a wild reach. Independent schools have stricter uniform policies. Independent schools tend to have higher academic attainment (if they didn't, people wouldn't be moaning about the injustice of them). I asked if it was in spite of the uniform but you ignored the question.

WRT to up-skirt photos; I'm not sure if 0.00005999% (based on 1/6 of the population being school-boy-age) constitutes a serious issue in some (3) schools.

NoLoveOfMine

You mean KES]?

They have an incredibly strict policy which, at a brief glance, gives girls more freedom than boys.

No jewelry for boys but allowed for girls. No hoddies, not even school sports hoodies.

"Short sleeve shirts are welcomed. Long sleeves may be worn with the cuffs buttoned or rolled up neatly."

"Boys: Hair is to be off-the-collar and must not appear excessively razored (level 2 is the absolute minimum and may be unacceptable in some cases), and should not hang over the eyes when wet and combed forward. Facial hair (stubble, beards, moustaches, excessively long sideburns) is not usually permitted.
Girls: For health and safety reasons, girls with long hair are likely to be required to tie it back in some lessons."

How many boys do you think are complaining or have their fathers complaining on line and coming up with a plan to have them wear a skirt and call the local press when the head disagrees?

I suspect none. I was at the school within the last 6 months. It's wonderful and the dress code is a small part of what makes it exceptional.

DeleteOrDecay

Somewhere in between. I wish I had the time to see every child as an individual but I can't. I'm responsible for the education of nearly 500 pupils from 2-IB. I know 75% of them by name but can't treat every single one as an individual. It's unrealistic to even attempt to. It isn't to say that an education can't be tailored to an individual but that doesn't extend to uniforms and basic rules.

When discussing transexuals and sport, it seems that most people on MN have really easy methods for distinguishing the population in to two homogenous masses.

No, I mean St Paul's Girls' School.

Actually plenty of boys complain about school dress codes. My brothers attend an independent boys' school (one of the highest performing) where the students successfully badgered the school to relax their 6th form dress code.

Anyway, as I said, the country's top performing school has no uniform and dress code and all independent schools either girls or mixed I know of allow skirts or trousers in uniform. There is no reason not to.

And proper professionals (i don't mean office rats and corporate slaves), but like professors, doctors, accountants, are pretty much free to wear casual.

Very much so. My mum's a dentist and I've not seen her in a skirt or dress in years.

CheesyCrust - I assume you don't work in a school? I do, and I see children playing on the school field every day.

Younger girls do care about showing their knickers, and older girls do like doing cartwheels and being able to totally relax and play as they would like, without worrying about underwear showing.

To be honest, you sound very old fashioned in your views. I'd like to ask -in the nicest possible way - are you older than the majority of posters on here? I genuinely haven't heard views like yours expressed for a very long time.

NoLoveofMine

How old are you? Your siblings still go to school.

I know of but not know St Paul's. I've met the headmistress who famously said "[the parents are] not at all on board with the idea of school as a community, learning to come second or that learning to give ground is an important part of education." If they have no uniform policy then perhaps they should,

My mum's a dentist and I've not seen her in a skirt or dress in years.

If she'd worked harder and dressed smarter then perhaps she could have been a doctor, not a dentist.

If she'd worked harder and dressed smarter then perhaps she could have been a doctor, not a dentist

Naicehamshop

I'm a headmistress, but thanks for asking.

I am quite old fashioned in my views in many ways but known in my field for quite progressive views with regard to educational science.

I'm closer to retirement than much else but have no idea where I am with regard to average age. What is the average age?

How old are you? Your siblings still go to school.

I'm 17. I still go to school. I have no dress code or uniform now as my school doesn't have any in the 6th form. Previously I could wear skirts or trousers.

If she'd worked harder and dressed smarter then perhaps she could have been a doctor, not a dentist.

Presumably an abysmal attempt at humour.

At my children's primary girls were not allowed to wear trousers or shorts despite the fact that most of the local primaries (including where I work) do allow it.

However, I cannot think of any local secondary that allows girls to wear trousers before the sixth form. DD was allowed trousers from sixth form if they were part of a suit but generally didn't as it was hard to find suits of any description to fit her (size 4-6 at that time) so a dress and blazer were easier.

I do remember a time when I wasn't allowed to wear trousers for work AND skirts weren't allowed to be below to knee....... the 'olden days' my kids call those late 80's to early 90's!

Cheesy - just laughed out loud at your comment about "dressing smarter" and becoming a doctor rather than a dentist!! This is a wind up, isn't it?

This is a wind up, isn't it?

Has to be

Didn't some boys stage a mini protest at their secondary school one summer a few years ago, where they came to school wearing skirts. I think they were saying their trousers were too hot and it was unfair that skirts were allowed but shorts weren't.
Sorry not much to do with anything it just came to mind haha

I imagine the average age is thirties/forties, but I may be wrong. You, Cheesy, seem to have wandered in from the 1950s.

"No one complained 20 years ago about school uniform."

Yes they did. My older sister left high school in 1998. In her last year she won the right in our really sexist "traditional" Catholic school for us girls to wear trousers. I was very proud of her and I don't think it's co-incidence that my confidence vastly improved after that. There was a lot of harassment to girls from boys and male teachers!

Tailored trousers on girls look very smart, in my experience. Most of the schools round here now allow girls to wear trousers. I doubt I'd be happy sending my kids to a school that didn't.

Yes, I forgot the ever-important smiley face. Dentists are people too

I've been deadly serious and honest with every other point made though.

Also, at my own school it actually felt like trousers were more approved of, because they were seen as modest and it's hard to break rules with them - with skirts, the 'uniform police' teachers were always on to us, checking the length and calling up girls who they felt looked inappropriate in tight ones.