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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think there can be no justification for not allowing trousers for primary girls

182 replies

Napoliforte · 11/05/2017 23:33

DD never wears skirts or dresses outside of school, she wears jeans and leggings and trousers and shorts. At school she's forced to wear a school skirt, and as of half term, a summer dress. We asked could she wear trousers, or the tracksuit joggers she has for PE, or smart shorts, but all were rejected. They are not seen as "smart" or traditional. AIBU to think this is silly and very sexist?

OP posts:
Bananamanfan · 13/05/2017 10:38

I'm not overthinking the white socks thing, i'm just noticing it. Red & white symbolic clothes are everywhere in our culture, most particularly in small children's stories, in a totally unsubtle way. That is aside from the pratical implications of white socks with girls shoes, which are open at the top. No one has yet challenged me on DD's grey socks-it's a ridiculous thing to specify in the first place.

nevernotstruggling · 13/05/2017 10:51

Yanbu in any way!! Dds school doesn't care. Some of the girls wear trousers and some wear culottes. They look fine. Obviously!!

noeffingidea · 13/05/2017 11:51

MargeryFenworthy
I don't find school trousers look in any way smart on girls at all. What a weird attitude. Why would you place a girl's appearance ahead of comfort and practicality?

Railgunner1 · 13/05/2017 12:37

take pride in their appearance and come to school ready to learn

where's pride in wearing something uncomfortable? Confused

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 12:47

Why do we accept this nonsense for kids any way.

Why when we spend so much time trying to get our children to treat others as they wish to be treated and to not judge people by how they look, What colour their skin is, if they walk differently or are in a wheel chair or struggle to talk etc.

Then we send then to school where their right to an education depends on kids being denied the right to wear perfectly reasonable items of clothing. And parents support this and in fact often pay for the privilege to have their child dressed in clothing that prevents them from doing exactly the same things as the other half of the class. And that not only does it matter what you look like it is in fact the only thing that matters. Why should girls be denied the choice of trousers or skirt and/or have clothing that is so impractical uncomfortable forced on them.

CheesyCrust · 13/05/2017 12:55

UserThenLotsOfNumbers

Write a letter to the local newspaper - it's wonderful what a bit of shaming can achieve.

Make sure you have tattoos, dyed green tips and a good 'sad face' prepared in case they want a photograph.

Albadross

Little girls don't care about anyone seeing their underwear even if it does appear and bigger girls don't want to do cartwheels on the grass. This is you imposing your own issues. I find skirts really comfortable.

Heels in the work place have nothing to do with uniform at primary school but whilst you're talking about the work place, my husband has to wear a "tailored suit with matching jacket and trousers. Plain shirts. No visible tattoos, no piercings. Naturally coloured hair in an appropriate style. Muted ties (preferably plain)" and a couple of other quite strict rules. Women have to wear, "smart and appropriate business attire" giving them everything from a skirt suit to a smart dress to trousers and a blouse.

Did you never experience boys chasing you and pulling up your skirt?

No. I didn't go to school with perverts and because my experience of school and life is so similar every other person I know, I struggle to get on board with the MN idea of boys and men being abusers, degenerates and rapists by default.

Appearance has nothing to do with learning well. Any reinforcement of the idea that someone's worth or ability is based on what they wear is a distraction from learning.

We are talking about uniform as opposed to appearance, but I'll assume you meant them synonymously (that's a hard word to spell!).

Firstly, a uniform removes any form of ability to judge someone by their clothing. Instead, a person is judged on their worth rather than 'look, that's the girl whose Mum wants to prove a point and now she's in trousers'. Life would be better if we didn't judge people based on appearance but we do. There's nothing you can do about that.

Secondly, a uniform does have benefits in and out of the class room. I think the most important is the feeling of being part of a community and being proud of what you're part of. We have a school song, well known Motto, all the children can explain the various symbology on the school crest, they happily come in to school to watch productions and cheer on their friends in intra and extra-mural competitions. They are proud of being in their house. It helps to foster a love of school and beyond that, a love of education and the school's ethos.

When children wear the same clothes as each other and the same clothes every day, there are fewer distractions. The uniforms are designed to be easily washable, comfortable, quick-drying and safe.

Uniforms prepare children for the real world where they will have to adhere to dress codes and take pride in their appearance.

Whilst studies have found both positive and negative correlations between strict dress codes and complete lack of a uniform and student attainment, diminishing social and economic barriers, fostering a sense of pride in your school, improving attendance and lowering the number of serious discipline incidents have been proven as positive benefits.

In case you hadn't guessed, we have a very strict dress code and like it. Parents like it and so do students. Our decision is a little more complex. We're an indy school (admittedly with a waiting list) but image is a large part of keeping the school oversubscribed. The type of parents who want to and can afford to send their children here also like uniform. I do too, but that's almost irrelevant.

It is interesting that independent schools tend to have higher student attainment and also stricter dress codes. Do they have this high attainment despite the uniform policy or is it a positive factor, do you think?

Photos up skirts when a girl isn't climbing is becoming a serious issue in some schools.

No it isn't.

Railgunner

Since when have loose fitting dresses been uncomfortable or impractical. The picture I attached isn't my school but I know it well. The uniform is comfortable and practical.

to think there can be no justification for not allowing trousers for primary girls
ddssdd · 13/05/2017 12:59

So pleased I'm not forced to wear a skirt for work!

Astro55 · 13/05/2017 13:00

When children wear the same clothes as each other and the same clothes every day, there are fewer distractions.

But they aren't wear the same are they?

Girls do want to climb and cartwheel - they have been taught to cover up and act like 'ladies'

My DD both wore shorts - as they were comfortable and practical - both were high attaining level 6+

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 13:01

Firstly, a uniform removes any form of ability to judge someone by their clothing. Instead, a person is judged on their worth

B.s.

Kids are sent home or removed from because someone has judged based on their appearance despite the fact they are hard working honest punctual and an upstanding member of the class.

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 13:03

Uniforms prepare children for the real world where they will have to adhere to dress codes and take pride in their appearance

You can take pride in your appearance in trousers

CheesyCrust · 13/05/2017 13:11

Gileswithachainsaw

I genuinely don't understand what you mean.

If you're talking about a (hypothetical boy) being sent home for having a green mohawk then they weren't adhering to the uniform / dress code and therefore were judged whereas if they had followed the rules, they would have only been judged on the content of their character and judged academically on their attainment.

As a slight aside, in my many years of experience, it isn't the children who are sent home or removed for breaking uniform policy who are punctual, hardworking and upstanding. They tend to be lazy, disruptive, have poor attendance and be little fuckers whose parents couldn't care less.

It goes beyond taking pride in your appearance. It can also be an understanding of expectations. My best friend (from when we were at prep school together) was cabin crew straight after she graduated and I think that one of her qualities which allowed her to progress in her career was understand expectations and meeting / exceeding them rather than arguing about the BA issued colour of lipstick.

Railgunner1 · 13/05/2017 13:12

Since when have loose fitting dresses been uncomfortable or impractical. The picture I attached isn't my school but I know it well. The uniform is comfortable and practical.

Makes the particular child uncomfortable and many others as well. I totally hated dresses/skirts as a child. So again -- where's pride? Hmm

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 13:13

And I doubt many people in offices are hanging upside down on a climbing frame so unless you wear a full on poncho or a straight jacket there's very little that will stop you typing on your computer or making a phone call.

Try it with a dress falling over your face and then come back and say it's not restricting play

noeffingidea · 13/05/2017 13:16

cheesycrust little girls don't care about anyone seeing their underwear- totally disagree. It really depends on how little. 3 or 4 years old? Maybe. 6,7 or 8? Yes most girls do care about people not seeing their underwear. As it happens, so do many boys. It's a matter of personal boundaries.
Bigger girls don't want to do cartwheels on the grass. Really?

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 13:19

And none if what you say explains why uniform trousers can't be worn by girls

Bythebeach · 13/05/2017 13:19

whatever - that is really heartening to hear. What school is that? Two uniforms which either gender can wear sounds brilliant - no sexism in any direction.

mojothecat · 13/05/2017 13:20

I obviously have no issue with girls wearing trousers in general life - jeans, leggings whatever. But those standard grey or black school trousers from M&S look awful on girls imo. They are nylon and probably uncomfortable and a bad fit for any girl who has even a hint of shape. They are cut for boys, not girls. A skirt is far more comfortable for most and I can't see the problem.
My girls are in a school where the uniform is a pinafore dress in winter and a summer dress now. It has never occurred to anyone to take issue with this. Sometimes I think MN is a parallel universe. My DD's are at an independent school, but I have never seen girls walking to or from any primary school in our area wearing trousers.
Do I think wearing dresses will affect my girls academic attainment over the next few years? No, why on earth would it?
Ballet is also compulsory at their school and they have a pink leotard, ballet skirt and wrap cardigan for that. Some may view this as sexist, but the fact is ballet is a fantastic and fun form of exercise. It helps with focus and posture and they all love it. Having to wear shin pads and mouth guards is far more hassle and less comfortable, but nobody has an issue with that, for some reason.

Railgunner1 · 13/05/2017 13:20

Uniforms prepare children for the real world where they will have to adhere to dress codes

That's bullshit. Apart Military/Police/Airlines there are very few 'proud' jobs which require uniform. Usually its lower lever service staff.
Dress codes are slightly different. Not allowing a woman to wear trousers would pretty much result in a lawsuit for discrimination.

noeffingidea · 13/05/2017 13:26

mojo there are school trousers that are specifically designed and cut for girls.
Of course Mumsnet isn't a parallell world. We do live in the real world as well as post on mumsnet. I live in an ordinary (slightly working class) area and most of the school girls wear trousers. Why wouldn't they? Trousers are normal wear for girls and women. Most of the adult women wear trousers, at least in day time.

BoneyBackJefferson · 13/05/2017 13:29

I am fairly sure that in England uniform at primary is not enforceable.

But the prize stupid goes to Garlicansapphire for

And if the rule applies to the children it should also apply to all teachers. .

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 13:30

Having to wear shin pads and mouth guards is far more hassle and less comfortable, but nobody has an issue with that, for some reason

It's Protective clothing comfort has to he a secondary choice to function with protective clothing. And boys and girls are both made to wear them when doing rugby and hockey taht thankfully now both genders are able to play.

As I would hope that ballet was open to all aswell.

DeleteOrDecay · 13/05/2017 13:31

But those standard grey or black school trousers from M&S look awful on girls imo

You do realise that you can buy school trousers that are cut for girls, right? My dd has a pair for nursery and will have some for when she starts school in September. She prefers skirts but wears trousers occasionally. She looks just as 'smart' as any other child in her school trousers.

Weird that some people are so against allowing girls to wear trousers for school if they so wish. There's no good reason not to allow it imo.

mojothecat · 13/05/2017 13:32

Noeff - I think the only time I've seen girls wearing trousers to school would be some Muslim girls.

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/05/2017 13:33

Both my Dds wear skirts as we have been unable to find a pair of trousers that fit.however we have a choice which is what matters. A choice is not alot to ask

noeffingidea · 13/05/2017 13:42

mojo that seems really strange to me. My son's senior school only allowed trousers. My daughter has always worn trousers at school. It's just completely normal in our local schools, though some do give a choice.

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