Seriously, what was ever so wrong with the EU that it has swayed life long Labour voters to vote Tory?

[Bearbehind]

As above really.

Some of the swings to Tory councillors are mind boggling.

What was/ is so bad about the EU that makes this worth it?

@TheMonkey

I chose my username in a hurry. I think your username is excellent and I recognised the reference immediately. My comment was with regard to choosing that username yet supporting a party which really hates Jews and women.

You haven't told me what point I proved.

@Buttercupz

Sorry, it wasn't you who explicitly said selfish and nasty. I'm defensive because people expect Tory voters to defend their position with Labour being the default position. I went to Oxford (the same as MonkeyandWood) and my undergrad was PPE yet people assume I'm either selfish or ignorant yet I'm neither.

Why would you call me selfish and nasty if I made that comment? Do you do nothing to minimise your tax liability? ISAs etc?

Where is the ignorance?

I have a wonderful alternative to expensive gluten free bread or pasta. It's called rice. It's delicious, nutricious and cheap.

Communism is one end of the circle (yes, I see the issue with the analogy) and it's one where you believe that everyone should work entirely unselfishly. I think that self-interest is in human nature and the idea that if you work hard you can succeed is what drives countries and economies forwards. Now, you appear to be somewhere in the middle. You are, to some extent, selfish. Maybe you have holidays or a nice car or eat chocolate when others are starving. On the other hand, you think that Tories are selfish and with this misguided notion think you are voting for the benefit of society with your non-Tory vote.

As I'm sure you read and understood, I didn't equate having a conscience as being a communist, I said that we all serve our interests to one extent or another and that this is selfish therefore you're hypocritical whereas I have a realisitc understanding of human nature and society and think a balance between supporting others and encouraging self reliance is the way forwards.

I was thinking of society as a whole as well as my own interests when I voted and I will do the same in the GE.

People know that these are difficult times and that we need the best team possible to navigate through and succeed. Not only is Corbyn not up to the job, the party do not have the talent to form a decent cabinet. You only have to think about how it would be if Diane Abbott had serious responsibility in government. I do not agree with the Tories on the NHS and Education but I feel Labour is such a disaster at present there is no alternative to the Tories.

My point was that it is easier to belittle others than to admit your own views are selfish and ignorant.

For example when you wanted to vote Tory just because there were some socialists outside the polling station.

Easier to not listen to what they are saying and just paint them as "Commie nutters", if you are just voting in self interest.

Then you came and said i was saying your views are selfish and ignorant merely because you disagreed with me. Easier to do that than think about why they are selfish (i.e. decreeing that people with coeliac disease must just have rice, unless they are rich enough to afford gluten free stuff in which case they are alright)

Figaro
"By the way. I voted remain (with a heavy heart) but am not devastated we are leaving. I also think more and more people looking at the antics of Juncker will be glad we are going."

I feel very similarly to you. At the start of the EU Referendum I would have classed myself as An Extremely Reluctant Remainer. My OH was in the same camp (Yes, the EU is shitty, but leaving will be more pain than staying).

The Remain campaign completely turned me off. I was deeply disgusted and dismayed at their implication that anyone who disagreed with them was a bit dim, jingoistic and racist.

The Rabid Remoaners on MN , and Junkers leaking details from a private dinner have pushed me (the kind of person Remain should have won over) even further in favour of walking away if they are not willing to negotiate a fair deal.

I thought it might be a north south thing but at the weekend we went into a neighbouring town (conservative) and it too looked well looked after and seemed to be doing far better for itself.

So it's ok that people are starving and are struggling to afford to live as long as the place looks pretty?

Jesus wept.

I think that self-interest is in human nature and the idea that if you work hard you can succeed is what drives countries and economies forwards.

It is an old question. But perhaps what has made sapien rise from the long grass is not so much our bloody teeth and claws, we are poor fighters, but our ability to work together towards common goals.

@TheMonkey

I admitted that I vote partially out of self interest and think that most others do and that this is a good thing. It gives fair allocation of resources.

It was you who instead of arguing over politics told me about your degree, where it came from and pointed out a typo.

I told you about my degree because you accused me of being ignorant about correct grammar.

Yes it was immature to point out your typo, i agree and apologise. But you'll thank me in long term now you have changed it

It does in no way give fair allocation of resources.

If everyone votes in self interest what happens to the needs of the vulnerable minority?

Indeed what has happened and is happening?

And that is not virtue signalling, but the truth.

I thought the crash ended the theory that greed was good.

dolores upthread was on the money. That is why Labour destroyed -because the real working class has nowhere to go.

To be honest, it was Blair that started the erosion. Corbyn is just doing a nice job of finishing it off. The fact that the Labour is anti-Semitic (WHY is this not talked about more?!?!) is the icing on the self-destruct cake)

What strikes me as odd is if people voted on the Brexit issue in "local" elections....

Being a good county councillor has nothing to do with your stance on Brexit.... in fact I think it's a bit odd in general to automatically transplant your national allegiance to local politics. A good councillor is more about being passionate for your community, representing their interests, and being good at holding council officers to account.... there's very limited scope for real substantive policy making.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. But politicians of all shaded organise themselves into parties for a reason. The founding fathers of the US were originally considering not having parties but found it just wouldn't have been practical.
In the case of JC's leadership, I wanted to make a point thatbit is time for him to go.

@Monkey

For example when you wanted to vote Tory just because there were some socialists outside the polling station.

Nope. Not close. What I actually said was that I was so undecided as to the EU referendum even when making my way to the polling station that the smug, rude and ignorant remainers nearly swung it for me. Fortunately I'm fairly mature when necessary and voted remain as it seemed like the safe bet when you're that undecided. I did tell the agressive wankers outside that I'd voted leave and ignored the torrent of unwarranted abuse.

Do you never do anything out of self interest? Never? Do you go on holidays or do you forgo those extravagances and donate the money saved to a deserving cause? I suspect not. We are all self serving to a certain extent and voting Tory does not mean you are only interested in yourself and want to 'kill of the disabled'. With centre-left and centre-right politics, people just have different means hoping to make it to the same end.

I don't think it's selfish to suggest that the NHS and country shouldn't provide £6 loaves of gluten-free bread when there's a cheap, tasty and nutricious alternative. You cut your coat according to your cloth as a nation and as an individual.

@makeourfuture

I'd say it was language, opposable thumbs and intellect. Humans don't work well together in large groups. We work well in small familial units. Especially in terms of scarce resources. If your children were starving, are you saying that you wouldn't tackle me and run over the top of me to get a last loaf of bread. I'm not saying that that's the situation now, simply that I think we're nothing but animals. It's nice to be nice and with our intellect we should look to help others but when push comes to shove, we're on the earth to die and then rot and feed plants and somewhere between dying and being born, we look to pass on our DNA and protect our young so they can do the same. You may think that this is sad and to some extent I agree, but recognising that people are self-serving is important.

Greed isn't good. However, motivation is. I (DH and I) paid nearly £90k in tax last year. With luck and hard work we have achieved high salaries and therefore put more back into society than if we earnt less. Honestly, proposed tax rates played no part in my voting decisions.

I agree MiniCooperLover Theresa May has as much charisma as a pair of period knickers. Yet people still vote Tory because they vote for the party and what they believe in. And they vote.

I don't understand why people would shift their vote from Labour to Tory either. If you do one of those quizzes that matches your beliefs and values to party policies (like uk.isidewith.com/ ) I can't see how you could end up with a choice between Labour and Conservative at the top. I did the quiz and of the parties that I can vote for (not in Scotland or Wales), Labour and Lib Dem are at the top, I agree with them on the vast majority of issues. The Tories, I agree with on less than 50% of issues.

So while I can see the point that Labour are a shambles and Corbyn a liability, I can't see how a former Labour voter could switch to Tory without voting for a party whose policies and philosophy they mainly don't agree with.

I think that people who are switching to vote Tory because of a single issue (Corbyn or Brexit) are rather ignoring all the other stuff that a government is in charge of.

Maybe people listened to the rampant propaganda instead of the facts. You do know Corbyn is a Brexiter?

Well Corbyn was always anti EU so what made him change his mind

He hasn't changed his mind in other matters as he sticks to his princples

If he didn't support Remain he would of had to resign as leader of the Labour Party and he wasn't willing to do that

Becuase people are not just voting for a party they are voting for someone or a group of people they feel are capable of being in government at this point in time

That's how poor labour are that they make May and her team look like a far more competent

I am an ex-Labour voter. Apart from the fact that Corbyn is like a parody, my conscience wouldn't let me vote for someone who is racist and has "friends" who say pretty dubious things. He's not fit to manage his allotment, never mind run the country!

It's fine to not want to vote for someone who is racist. So you couldn't possibly vote for the Conservatives with Boris Johnson as foreign secretary.

You're quite right noble, I won't be voting for the Tories (and never have!).