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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think breastfeeding has made no difference to my dd and is massively overrated in terms of benefits?

999 replies

Placeanditspatrons · 30/04/2017 07:51

I've nearly driven myself to a breakdown feeding my dd. She is 16 months now and I'm still feeding. She has been ill more times and worse than my formula fed from four months son. She does not recover any faster and she catches anything I get and gets it worse, despite supppsedly the antibodies passing to her and either preventing or reducing the severity of the illness.

I know it's anecdotal and the studies say overall bf babies are healthier but how much healthier? I mean I we talking one less cold? One less ear injection? Statistically? Many of my friends have said similar. Again anecdotal but I can't help wondering - after the colostrum which is more important I guess - does it really make any noticeable difference?

OP posts:
PrettyFlyForATightGuy · 05/05/2017 08:31

OP you've done fantastically to breastfeed for this long but you're right, although we know that the overall population benefit is good for breastfeeding, it's hard to see on an individual level and for plenty of babies it will make no obvious difference. This is incredibly frustrating when you've worked hard and against adversity on something but you did it for all the right reasons. Also just think of the benefits you've had for you, your lifetime risk of breast, ovarian and endometrial cancer is decreased because you've breastfed for so long. I certainly wouldn't feel any pressure to continue at 16 months unless you still feel like the current positives outweigh the negatives for you and your family.

Alyosha · 05/05/2017 08:31

Bert - re: lower risk of SIDS, I find this interesting as lots of pro-BF people encourage new mums to cosleep "safely",which raises risks of SIDS.

of course giving a dummy also cuts SIDS risk, something many people who promote BF are against.

I also think you are falling headfirst into the naturalistic fallacy. Natural doesn't mean better. Lots of horrible things are natural.

Research shows the main benefits of BF are a slightly lower risk of infections & a very slightly lower risk of breast cancer (1-2%) for the mum. SIDS risk is also slightly lower (lots of confounding variables in this though).

Given around 15% of women will find it difficult to EBF due producing no milk, or insufficient milk, I think there will be issues with dehydration with EBF newborns as long as there are people who want to EBF. You're right that they need more support, but more support alone can't solve the problem.

I don't think it matters that babies are fed (as you put it) a "processed food" because we can see - over huge populations - that it does not harm babies, that it is safe, and that it has no link with mortality or future success. BF rates have risen & fallen in this country and others over the past 50 years without moving the dial on infant/neonatal/perinatal mortality, school achievement or quite literally any other measure of child health and achievement.

Tiktok - that's great, so you would tell parents all of that but not tell them why they should look at nappies, poos, wees?! I think it's fine to tell people who FF that they risk slightly more infections - it's about giving people the choice & the full information to make the choice. As long as it's presented in an understandable way, i.e. for your individual child FF means they may have one more episode of diarrhoea in a year (and that's actually overstating it), BF means your child is x% more likely to be admitted to hopsital for dehydration. 1 in x children who are EBF will develop low blood sugar, potentially leading to brain damage etc.

Secondly I find it concerning you are saying there are no long term consequences to severe dehydration. That does not jibe with the experiences of many parents, and the studies did not engage in long term followup, so we have no idea.

Alyosha · 05/05/2017 08:34

Sunshine - I don't think babies have the capacity to separate out "poor latch" from "breastfeeding" as a concept, so GreenGinger is entirely correct to say that they hated BF.

I mean she is the one that had the baby & tried to BF, after all...

GreenGinger2 · 05/05/2017 08:34

We had help and tried everything.

I know my DC, I knew my babies. They hated bfing as much as I did.

Sorry to disappoint.

itsmine · 05/05/2017 08:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alyosha · 05/05/2017 08:39

Bert - it all depends what you mean by better.

Everyone here accepts the evidence that FF has a slightly higher risk of infections. But BF is not without risks as well (dehydration, low blood sugar).

You pay for FF but depending on how your baby feeds, you may also pay for BF in terms of time spent feeding, not being able to attend to other children etc.

It depends on the individual baby and the parents' conception of risk.

I'm personally keen to BF as bottles, sterilising, making up feeds sounds like a faff, but who knows, maybe I'll hate BF, or it will be painful, or just won't work out.

Sunshineandlaughter · 05/05/2017 08:40

Read the article but most worrying read the comments -sort by best rated and then tell me prejudice against bf doesn't exist.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2760234/Breastfeeding-public-frowned-Mothers-feel-marginalised-ashamed-study-finds.html

Offred · 05/05/2017 08:43

I don't think sunshine had comments as she shied away from public BF at that stage.

I do recognise however that general comments, which are usually made with reference to BF generally (and extended BF) do make BF mothers afraid to BF in public.

If it helps I only had comments intended to be supportive even if it miffed me slightly that a lot of them were about slagging off mothers who FF. Their intention was to support my BF and I hope they don't go around telling off FF.

itsmine · 05/05/2017 08:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alyosha · 05/05/2017 08:53

I think BF probably is marginalised in some communities, and that's sad.

I think only about 20% of new mothers even initiate BF in some (predominantly white working class) areas. So it can be uncommon.

Offred · 05/05/2017 08:54

And the point tiktok is making (quite rightly) is that it is not BF that is the risk but poor milk transfer that isn't identified or sorted out.

And that thing of thinking a baby who becomes happy and sleepy on formula so BF wasn't an option is a mix of not getting the milk transfer issue sorted (yes it might not have worked even with the best support) and with formula making the baby sleepy which is the mechanism by which FF increases SIDS as I understand it.

It's not good for a newborn to be dehydrated or losing weight after the first week but it is good for a newborn to be alert and that is what makes all newborns hard no matter how you feed them.

Fine to say milk transfer was poor, I couldn't get it sorted out so I had to/chose to FF/top up in order to rescue my babies from dehydration/FTT. That is exactly what happened with my twins.

It's not correct to say the baby hated BF. As you said a newborn baby can't really 'hate' BF, they are just hungry and thirsty.

And as tiktok explained earlier it isn't really correct to say 15% can't BF so why keep saying it.

Also the thing re safe bed sharing isn't my understanding of the issue either. Safe bed sharing is not implicated in increased risk of SIDS/suffocation/overheating statistically. FF no matter how the baby sleeps is however implicated in a small increase in risk of SIDS.

itsmine · 05/05/2017 08:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred · 05/05/2017 08:55

The issue with bedsharing no matter how you feed is to do with people not understanding what is safe and what isn't.

Offred · 05/05/2017 08:57

I agree itsmine. FF will be sensitive to comments re FF and BF will be sensitive to comments re BF. People should not comment.

Offred · 05/05/2017 09:00

(Cosleeping BTW is sharing a room. The two things being conflated leads to much confusion and risk, esp when cosleeping is the NHS advice and a parent's peers are ones who think cosleeping is bedsharing)

Offred · 05/05/2017 09:05

We changed the local info re bedsharing and risks slightly to help protect babies because our local breastfeeding support service recognised that the vast majority of BF bedshare inspite of the NHS diktat not to and had been given no information re suffocation, overheating, drugs, alcohol, smoking, partners in the bed, their own sleep deprivation etc.

Sunshineandlaughter · 05/05/2017 09:08

And for what it's worth Ireland is even worse than the U.K. As regards it's attitude to bfing - it's such a conservative country you can even hold hands with your husband without a tut in some areas - there's no support at all for young mothers boob feeding in public! I think it's got the lowest rate of bfing in Europe. Times are changing there now though so hopefully that is something which will soon change too.

GreenGinger2 · 05/05/2017 09:21

Offred nobody knows the reason for the link between bfing and SIDS protection.

And um my babies were fully alert thanks and most certainly did loath breast feeding. I know my babies thanks,you don't.

Before we go down the ff and you put your baby at risk of SIDS scaremongering route do you realise how incredibly rare SIDS is? The figures are teeny. The risks are co sleeping,smoking,baby not sleeping on it's back,sleeping in car seats for long periods of time and not sharing a room. It is more prevalent in underweight babies.Formula feeding is not listed as a risk,why would it be?Using a dummy protects babies from SIDS, not using a dummy isn't classed as a risk.

Frankly if you have a normal weight at birth baby,don't co sleep,share a room,put baby on it's back,don't use car seats for too long and use a dummy the risks of SIDS are beyond tiny before we even get onto nutrition. As it happens the benefits from breast feeding are for exclusivity for any amount of time. The maj of babies get that. The maj are breast fed at birth.

Alyosha · 05/05/2017 09:26

Offred, you're wrong.

Bed sharing raises the risk of SIDS (yes, even "safely" with the baby having its own blanket etc.), room sharing, without bed sharing, cuts it.

Using a dummy also cuts risk. As does BF.

Alyosha · 05/05/2017 09:28

Sunshine, I'm surprised by that.

LLL was after all set up by catholic mothers concerned women were venturing outside the domestic sphere, enabled by FF.

Also Offred...that poor uptake of milk is only really a risk with BF. That's the point. Just like improperly making up a formula feed is only a risk with formula feeding.

Offred · 05/05/2017 09:28

But I do wholeheartedly agree that 'breast is best' is shockingly unhelpful, condescending and stupid. That is not the beginning and the end of breastfeeding support, a lot of the time just that message undermines BF I think though.

It is also true that in this country most babies survive and thrive no matter how they are fed. However ante/postnatal care could be much much better and feeding (ff/bf) support could be much much better from a public health POV. It doesn't just come down to BF. There are ways people could and should be supported with FF/topping up/mixed feeding that could positively impact on public health etc but too often the HCPs say they cannot give any advice re FF and that puts babies at higher risk as much as the 'just give him formula' does, if not more given most babies are given formula.

Almost all of parenting is about making a risk/benefit assessment and almost all parents do this for all their children all their lives and this almost always results in positive outcomes. That does make us lucky in the U.K. But I do still think only talking about all issues re parenting at the earliest when someone is pregnant is too little too late.

Why don't all teenagers learn about infant feeding/weaning and attachment theory etc

itsmine · 05/05/2017 09:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred · 05/05/2017 09:40

Research has shown no increased risk re actually 'safe' bedsharing rather than people who have a poor understanding of the risks re bedsharing. I do agree that including the word 'safe' is slightly misleading in that there can be no such thing as 'safe' merely 'safer', as with feeding generally.

Thing is we know in this LA BF do bedshare and they bedshare with unnecessary risks to the baby inspite of the safe sleeping campaign because they don't know what risks there are and because BF often is outside the norm here and ppl mainly go with anecdotal advice or parenting movements.

We decided we needed to stop just telling people to put their baby to sleep in a cot and alongside that also give them some information about what the risks of bedsharing/to sleeping babies actually ARE because that advice was resulting in a load of bedsharing without any understanding of what the increased risks are.

It's very similar to FF really, the risks of a bedsharing baby dying are very very small.

Doesn't mean people don't need to understand the risks. And it doesn't mean that giving BF people, who almost universally bed share here (something like 90% of BF mothers in our LA) information about the actual risks is a bad idea.

Offred · 05/05/2017 09:42

I did give my young babies a dummy because of the research actually. I also took it away at 6 months with all of them to break the association between sleep/comfort and sucking and to protect their teeth, though none of mine got any teeth before 10months

bigmamapeach · 05/05/2017 09:44

I realise it's derailing the thread somewhat, and I don't want to do that but I do feel it's necessary to pick up on an error of fact which has been stated above.

tiktok, you said:

"Why all this about dehydration? The risk is not 'substantial'. Even severe neonatal hypernatraemic dehydration does not have sequelae (per the Oddie et al study which followed every case in the UK over a period of years) when treated. "

This is not correct ("does not have sequelae"). Oddie study, fn.bmj.com/content/98/5/F384.long did not do long term follow up. The only data was collected by having the managing paediatricians fill out a report card on the in-hospital stay, and they analysed the data on those in-hospital outcomes - showing babies were by and large fine when discharged. That does not mean they did not go on to have long term problems. We don't know that without specifically constructing a cohort of such babies and following them, with specific procedures for checking on particular aspects of their long term development.

As the authors say in their abstract "Aims: To describe incidence, presentation, treatment and short term outcomes"

I am not aware of any studies which do attempt to gather longer term data on the outcomes following hypernatremia, or substantial weight loss. In the absence of such data, we cannot make firm statements about the absence of harm. To be clear, substantial weight loss without hypernatremia, is likely to be much more common than hypernatremia (which corresponds to the most severe end of the spectrum of problems with milk intake).

If you know of studies which do report on such outcomes, please provide them, and we can all learn from the evidence.

In addition, the cutoff for hypernatremia in the Oddie study was 160 mmol/l, higher than conventional 150, which therefore indicates they would have captured a smaller group of babies with their more selective definition. There are other reasons to think the population prevalence estimate might be an under-estimate, but I won't go into these here as I do think overall it's a very valuable study, but shouldn't be read as gospel, just a starting point for further understanding of this important problem.

As an illustration that our knowledge of newborn feeding issues is evolving all the time, another study has suggested (absolutely not definitive, due to the possible biases) that long term problems might be associated with transient hypoglycemia:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26301959

In the light of this, we can't really assume that something as severe as hypernatremia in the 1st few weeks of life is completely harmless either.

I personally feel that I don't agree with some of your other points tiktok, but won't belabour them here so as to derail any further (and won't comment further on the discussion as I feel it's getting away from the OP's concerns) - but would just say, that there are very few areas of healthcare where we can happily say: "we know everything we need to know to operate safely and effectively, if only we were allowed to 100% apply our current knowledge". There are always uncertainties, and our understanding of lactation physiology, and BF, is actually not that great as compared to many other biomedical subjects. I would love to see a lot more research into the practical and clinical aspects of BF management eg, acknowledging the difficulties many mothers have in establishing BF (not just saying "low supply doesn't really exist, it's just all in your head or the fault of hospital practices), and trying to work out how to improve this. Which would involve to start with the folks who work in BF support acknowledging and engaging with researchers and clinicians on the studies that need to be done to fill in knowledge gaps. For example you imply with weighing data and nappy data we can confidently identify babies at risk of poor milk intake - nappy data are actually not that diagnostic; the diagnostic stats for nappy counts are not adequate for determining confidently that a baby is "fine" and not at risk from poor milk intake. I have heard it said too many times from those in BF support that substantial weight losses are not to be worried about - weight measurements can be "wrong" etc, so the baby is "fine". As Neifert said - "The fear that saying anything negative about breastfeeding will have an adverse effect on promotion efforts contributes to a conspiracy of silence about breastfeeding failures that impedes an understanding of the problem."
Pediatric practitioners are obligated to confront the reality of breastfeeding failure, identify associated risk factors, and implement intervention strategies to prevent infant morbidity."

And I will be off this thread now, apologies to the OP. I really hope you are happily making your decisions about how to manage your baby's feeding and getting all the support you need in real life. I am really sorry to hear that BF has been very hard work for you, but I hope now you will be able to either find it easier, if you decide to continue, or that stopping (if that is your decision) will enable you to get on with enjoying the interactions with your baby in other ways. So many things can have impacted on your baby's health, that it is really impossible to know, as folks say, what precisely the contribution of BF was versus other things. I am sure though, that the antibodies and other immune factors, will have been very valuable, and potentially will have helped her to be healthier than she otherwise would have been had she not had the BM. Whether you decide it was worth the work, is your decision only, and you don't need to share it with anyone. My best to you. xx

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