'Free birthing' AIBU to think this woman should not be encouraging people to do this

[WilliowGreen]

In this guardian article this woman boasts about her wonderful birth experience by rejecting all care including scans because "it was not empowering".
Before I had my baby (she is 2 weeks old) I would probably have thought her lack of self awareness was funny. Now it quite irrationally fills me with rage.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/apr/28/experience-i-had-a-free-birth.

Exactly, not many people actually would but that doesn't mean it should be presented as a foregone conclusion, eliminating the need for informed consent. Midwifery is supposed to be a woman centred practice.

SecretFreebirther

I think 'midwife' means 'with wife', doesn't it? The midwife is there for the woman.

Just because I would accept any treatment to save my baby (in a heartbeat), doesn't mean that is something I can insist on anyone else doing.
Total generalisation but I think this is the way first time mothers feel but it's not so straightforward when you have four existing children who need you to come home.

Every time I think I ought to give the Guardian another go, they come out with something so awful that I am put off all over again

SecretFreebirther:

True.

I don't think she was boasting and I don't think she was encouraging people to do the same. She was writing about her experience. She didn't come out of the system altogether and there was still some interaction with a midwife.

I certainly wouldn't go down this route myself and am not supporting her, but it isn't good how we have lost touch with nature and instinct. When I was pregnant with DC3, my 20 week scan picked up a soft marker for Down's. It was suggested, with no comment about the risks, that I have an amniocentesis, but I opted for the scans instead. The scans came up with nothing conclusive (of course) and it was only a very experienced soon to retire midwife at a routine check, who when I told her the woes I'd gone through, felt my tummy and told me that the baby was fine, that it was a big baby and that babies with chromosomal abnormalities aren't big babies. That made me feel so much better than any scan or dealing with a doctor or consultant. Do younger midwives still have the ability and courage to give such reassuring advice?

Hilarious

I'm wary of rhetoric about losing touch with nature and instinct etc. I felt it romanticised birth in a way that's not necessary. (E.g. the weird kudos women get the less pain relief they request)

It's very easy I think for people to want to do all the chat about going for natural and back to basics but they say it flippantly knowing they'd not advocate doing it all if it meant no medical safety net. Going right back to nature means mums and babies dying. I think a lot of people who make a big thing about how natural they are only say it because they know if it came to it somebody would sort it out.

There's obviously a middle ground, which I'd imagine you (like me) fall into.

We only have to look at places like NI to see what effects removal of choices 're a person's body are.

Yes sadly due to bad decisions there will be unnecessary deaths. That's tragic there's no denying that.

But things would be much much worse if we adopted the stance where medical proffessionals were able to do whatever they felt necessary without the need for consent and no matter what happened to the patients as long as babies survived.

It would be catastrophic and this woman's story would become the norm as people caught back against it.

Fought

Maisy - I think we have a similar view here. I wouldn't condone going right back to nature, but do feel we're losing confidence in our own abilities and instincts.

so maisy are you saying that unless you accept any and all medical interventions/services/whatever, you shouldn't be allowed to access any? Because thats just nonsense.

and yes, as an aside, a Midwife's job is entirely centred around the woman, not the baby. Ask any midwifery student and they will tell you mentioning that you like baby's is how you dont get a place on a course. because its NOT about the baby. it's about the woman.

I said the point of labour is having a live baby and it's not about the mother.

It's not chilling, it's true.

I have three kids, all I cared about was them being born healthy. Thank god they were. Part luck, part being in a good hospital with good doctors and midwives who knew what they were doing.

Of course babies and mothers die in hospital. That's a tragedy. There are mistakes made of course.

But to have a free birth or a home birth when you are strongly advised against it?

That's 'chilling'.

I couldn't give a flying shit about my 'experience'.

Of course it's about the mother.

You can not have a happy outcome if you forget that.

Unless you are going to adopt all the babies born to women who "missed the point" dared to believe that their care was paramount and are severely traumatised, depressed, suicidal, sufferring negative effects from the birth, and cannot cope with the baby?

I couldn't give two hoots if women with access to modern healthcare want to go "freebirth" in the woods or whatever. More fool them but the world's not short of fools.

I am fairly passionate about extending healthcare to all the women around the world who rebirth through lack of choice.

snapcrap

The 'point' of labour is having a live baby AND A HEALTHY MOTHER. In nature, if the mother doesn't survive nor does the baby, generally speaking. It is very much about the mother.

Freebirth is bloody stupid but people have the right to be fools

IT is all about the mother.
Especially when you have other children to consider. You don't sacrifice yourself to save your baby, only in Ireland I think.

I don't mean it doesn't matter if the mother is badly treated or hurt - my experience with my second child was not great (mean midwives, bad tearing) and of course it affected me and I thought about how to make things better next time (speak up more).

But our experience is secondary to what we are doing IMO, we should not be going into birth thinking about having particular experiences or thinking a natural birth or home birth or free birth is the aim. It's not.We should go into a birth thinking about the baby being born healthy and alive. And therefore accepting medical opinion and guidance.

I disagree.

So many factors will affect what decisions a person will make.

Previous trauma

Existing family

Religious beliefs

Phobias

Mental health issues

Contradictory advice from medical personnel

Amongst other things

Do you really think it's as simple as walking into a room ready to hand over your body to complete strangers and ones who don't feel you are even important enough to talk to about anything or present alternatives?

The Handmaid's Tale, anyone?

Medical procedures carry risks of their own. And drs get it wrong.

Impressions and treatment of the mother count. They are often going to be what people base their opinions and validity of advice on. You can't treat people like crap and then berate them for not listening to you

I don't think she was boasting and I don't think she was encouraging people to do the same. She was writing about her experience.

Completely agree with you Hillarious

Yet the title is 'this woman should not be encouraging people to do this'.

I'm really not encouraged to do that at all. I don't think a single person on this thread has fancied giving it a go either. Yet there are loads of posts worrying that other people, not sensible people you understand, but stupid people, we all know who they are, might do something risky because of something they read in the Guardian.

And then there are people who wang on about the time they nearly died...

And then there are the people who say things like: The aim of 'giving birth' is to have a live baby and It is not about the mother or for the mother

That's chilling.

Most women do not go against strongly advised medical advice when it comes to the life of their baby snapchat. So we can rule out that woman you linked to as a bit of an anomaly.

Or do you think there are lots of people like her?

GreatFuckability

Clearly I'm not saying that.

I just can't help but think that this woman wouldn't be so unique and natural if she upped sticks and went to give birth somewhere that doesn't have our health service to jump in if things go wrong. Ergo, she is a self-absorbed poser who wants to seem cool and quirky safe in the knowledge that she has a get out. It's a bit like voluntourism where people go to "find themselves" in another country and help the orphans safe in the knowledge that at the end of the day having enjoyed their poverty porn they'll go back to an air conditioned hotel and their lovely suburban life.

I can accept people wanting a free birth if they are well informed and medical staff are aware Eg. Attend scans like you would if you want a home birth and if low risk enough for a home birth then you could do that, call up when you're in labour and a midwife could come if there was a problem. (A poster earlier on did something similar)

What I strongly disagree with is a woman opting out of any reasonable risk assessment on the whims of 'empowerment' whilst simultaneously expecting the whole system to kick in if there's a problem. Yes it turned out OK for her. But it was a stupid risk and I will judge her for it.

I went against medical advice to have a c section due to having a previous Section. I'd had a VBAC since the section so I was rather alarmed by the medical advice and I didn't agree with it. My new consultant "didn't like VBACS" . I didn't feel i trusted the consultant enough to go to hospital so had a home birth!

Many women have gone against accepted medical practice and it has resulted in changes of practice. VBACs for a start.

Interestingly Brazil has the sort of healthcare which expects you to obey medical decisions. Drs much prefer c sections hence the rate is 80% plus and VBACs don't happen. One woman is documented as trying to get a Dr to help her give birth vaginally after a section. Most refused. That's not the sort of healthcare I want.
My point is that accepted practice is sometimes due to other factors - custom, financial, etc.