Mistaken identity and race

[Furchesterbaby]

I know this might be a sensitive subject. I'm genuinely not wanting to cause any offence but it's something that I've wondered and wouldn't exactly feel able to speak about.

I work for a very large organisation, it's very multicultural. On a number of occasions over the years there have been incidents where two people that are black have been mixed up with one another, and it's turned quite heated and was deemed a race issue. I.e them accusing people of thinking all black people look the same.

One example was there were two guys, both were black, both had long dreads, very often new people would get them confused with one another. They were very similar in that they were the same height, both wore glasses, I knew them apart, but could see how a new person might get confused. One of the men would get very angry and once in a training session had a big rant about it and it being racist. The most significant thing in all of it was that both men had the same, fairly unusual first name, so it really could have been just mixed up surnames.

I've seen similar over the years and it's always deemed racial ignorance. It happened a few weeks ago where a young trainee was sent to ask a question, she approached the wrong person and was snapped at "I'm not X, X is the other black person".

The thing is, over the years I've regularly been mistaken for other women with the same hair colour. I worked on a team for many years with another woman, we were both red but the similarities ended there, yet we were always mixed up. There's a lady on my team now and we are the same height, hair and both wear glasses, people are always coming up to me asking if I'm this other person.

My son gets mixed up with a child at school, another boy until teachers get to know them.

So my question is aibu to think that this isn't about race?

I need to say, I'm not denying the racism and stereotyping goes on even now. I'm not trying to pretend it doesn't happen or that it's not an issue anymore. I'm not going to pretend that as a white person I can fully understand how it is to be discriminated against because of my colour. I've literally just felt at times that these things weren't about that, but I accept if there's something where I'm missing the point.

I teach in an international school. Overwhelming majority of students are of Arabic background.

My (white) dds are frequently mistaken for each other despite not being particularly alike. They also routinely get confused with other white girls - they each have one white classmate & people muddle them up frequently.

Neither they nor I have ever felt bothered by this tbh - whereas my friend with two black daughters at the school gets mightily pissed off by it. Her girls are adopted, aren't biologically related to each other & look nothing alike - but they are the only two black girls so they get muddled All. The. Time. That or people assume the only black boy in school must be their brother...

I can see exactly why she finds it offensive. The fact that it hadn't occurred to me to be annoyed at my daughters being mistaken for each other because of their race is of course a consequence of my background of white privilege. I get that.

So I can see why the people in OP don't feel being mistaken for their black colleague is in anyway akin to being mistaken for a fellow glasses wearer or redhead! Yabu I think...

So is it OK WishfulThanking for me to say in that situation "I wasn't being racist"? Or if not what should I say?

Interesting how posters assume that the person mixing up the two black men was white. OP doesn't say she was, just that the organisation is very multicultural. She probably was white, but to assume it is a lazy cultural assumption. Also re-reading the OP, she doesn't say that these were the only black men working there. Just the two that happened to get confused for each other.

WishfulThanking You only realise the discussion has moved if you read every single response which I would be foolish to do since it is some 4 bloody pages. But you obviously have the time. I just respond to the initial post and don't wriggle my way through all the answers to it.

I am not angry, which is hopefully evident from the fact I am not accusing anyone of anything.

I am simply trying to explain how debilitating face blindness is. E.g. not being able to be honest about it at work or network with acquaintances to secure promotions. Not being able to aid your children's friendships at school. Living in fear of making an embarrassing error and being found out or accused of racism. I have never been accused of this and I happen to have far more trouble with white faces. The people I pair off and muddle up often, when considered objectively side-by-side, look completely different. Also, sometimes the same person looks completely different the next time I see them - they genuinely look like someone else. Perhaps my brain is picking up on completely different aspects of their appearance. The result it that I might behave as if I have never met them before, when I had lunch with them a week earlier (this has happened with new colleagues before).

I haven't met the OP's colleagues, but because I spend so much time learning faces, if they were both in the same office as me and had their own desks, I am pretty sure I would end up secure about the distinction within six months. It is much harder learning people in a free-flow environment like the school playground.

Also, prosopagnosia, though under diagnosed, is relatively rare. So I don't believe for one minute that everyone in the OP's office has it. Given the hours I spend staring at photos from the school system to learn to recognise my pupils, I do think people in the OP's office could make a similar effort. Incidentally, Facebook is an absolute lifesaver - not only for providing a direct link between face and name, but also, because I forget people if I haven't seen them for a while, it provides a drip drip visual reminder.

I don't think it's just about race. When I used to watch big brother I always managed to distinguish the female contestants really quickly but always struggled with remember who all the males where. They were mostly white and I couldn't tell them apart. I'm Caucasian as well. Just sometimes some genders and races are harder then others for some people.

Of course race has a lot to do with it. There is good evidence that racial minority members are more likely to get mixed up with each other, because the race becomes "salient," making it harder to see individual characteristics.

I am white and live in a majority non-white country; happens to me as well.

It IS unfortunate. But there isn't, like, anything that you can actually DO about this. You can't just order people to "Stop mixing people up!!": this isn't something they are choosing to do. Therefore they cannot choose to stop doing it.

The only thing that makes this problem less likely is when members of the majority race start to have more contact with more members of the minority race, so that race becomes less salient.

Thing is, if you start yelling at people that they are "aggressive/bigoted/whatever," the message people will take home from that is that mixing with members of XYZ race is fraught with danger and should therefore be avoided, which makes majority-race members less likely to spontaneously specialize or form friendships with members of minority races.

Well, Liar, in this case your not reading any of the responses has resulted in you looking foolish and unnecessarily violent. Your prerogative not to read the full thread, but also my prerogative to point out that the discussion has moved on.

I find it very difficult to tell people apart or even recognise people. I really rely on clues like hair colour. I do find it hard to tell two Asian people at work apart as they both have straight black hair. It's not racist to bot be able to tell 2 men apart who have similar hair.

I can see how it could easily be perceived as racial. When I was at university, I couldn't get my contact lenses in one night and was too vain to wear glasses, so everything was blurred. There were 2 girls from Singapore on my course, and I literally could not see which one was waving at me, albeit I could tell it was either A or B, so I took a punt. And got it wrong.

She said with acid sweetness the next day, "oh don't worry, it's easy to mix up the only two Asian girls in the year, isn't it?"

And it really made me think because yeah, white privilege, it wouldn't have bothered me. Lucky me.

It's a bit like that article that was trending a while ago, where black writers were describing white characters in the same way black characters always seem to get described - "her skin gleamed like an onion", that sort of thing. It might not be intentional, it might not be malicious, but it's thoughtless and everyone should be more aware of these things IMO.

anyone vaguely similar is a problem for me. does not matter what race they are. and if people change their hairstyle or glasses I am stuffed .

Yabu. I've watched people mistake mixed race class mates for people who looked completely different and one wore glasses, the other didn't. The excuse was always they look so alike when they clearly didn't.
You don't say if these colleagues actually look alike, just that they both have dreads. Different people wear dreads differently as well.

I think part of the problem is that people equate the word 'racism' with 'necessarily deliberate and aggressive'.

People don't think that their actions can also be unconsciously racist. Like Korean people constantly offering me a fork when I can use chopsticks perfectly well. They don't mean to be rude or belittling or to make me feel like an outsider - but the 20th time it happens, it starts to feel like that. They make an assumption about me - that I am not integrated, that I can't possibly feel comfortable using chopsticks. When people mix up two people of the same race, I dare say 90% of the time, it's purely accidental - but that doesn't stop it being racist and it doesn't stop people feeling like they are being discriminated against.

As I said above I don't want to equate being white in Asia with being black in Europe - these groups have vastly different experiences. But I have experienced just a little bit of what it feels like to be told you don't 'really' belong, that you're an outsider, and it is a really awful feeling, far more hurtful and dehumanising than I could have imagined. And I am in a situation where I can basically leave whenever - this is not my country. If racism happened to me in my own country, and in far more extreme ways than happens here, I know it would hurt a lot more.

Interesting 're the connection between prosopagnosia and autism as I have aspergers. I struggle with DD's friends and I still don't know who about 70% of the folk in my office are. I go out and deliver training to clients and if we are discussing them afterwards I'm always the person going "were they at the top of the table on the right hand side"

Funny thing is I have a great memory otherwise

I am almost-blind (5% sight remaining) and mix EVERYONE up until they speak to me :) Unless someone has a very distinguishing feature like an enormous nose or scarlet hair then I can't tell them apart. I even mix up male/female. I'm not even species-ist, I regularly apologise to lamp-posts for brushing past them.

People, things. You all look the same to me

I have terrible facial recall and have to work hard to remember faces and names. Very trivial example - I'm white but I always mix up Ryan Gosling and Ryan Reynolds because they're both actors, fair complexion, good looking and a similar age. If I see one on their own, I have to think - are they the one that was in lala land or the one in the bt advert.
I'm the same - I get Matt Damon & Mark Wahlberg confused a lot in the same way. Equally I get Denzil Washington & Jamie Foxx confused because they always seem to play very similar parts (law enforcement-type heroes) - no doubt some people would call me racist if I said that just because they're both black but it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with mental associations. If I'd seen one play bad guy roles I wouldn't be confused at all.

As the discussion appears to have moved on from judging if the original issue was racist should we also move to acknowledging that we shouldn't minimise anybodies experience.

I am ok with faces but have never been able to remember names, I sometimes even struggle to find my immediate family's names. With colleagues I've worked with for over 5years despite explaining it's nothing oersonal I can see it upsets them despite my explanations. Well for me it's mortifying and there is nothing I can do about it and horrible to have to keep on justifying my 'failings'. PLEASE can we judge people a little less and accept a little more?

I do feel it might be relevant that where I work roughly 25% of the workforce are white, not all white British it is very multicultural and representative of our client base. So it really wasn't a case of getting the only two black males mixed up. I think the reason it happened often was the hair, glasses and the name, same height/build, those that I must say their faces look nothing alike and they had different skin tones. But, having read many of these posts I can totally see why it was grating.

Liar I take it you're not really a lawyer, or have been drinking yourself. The aggression and accusing me of drinking would suggest both are true! (If you were a lawyer you would have clever arguments rather than swearing and accusing people of drinking. If you're drinking yourself then that is why you are projecting your issues onto me)

VoiceOfReason The first thing you can do is to not seek to minimise the experience of BME people when they try to tell you about it.
I'm not minimising! As a disabled woman, I have some degree of personal understanding of privilege. I'm trying to explain that I can't do anything about it.

But voiceofreason the reason that white people cant make these distinctions between black people of completely different heritage is because they don't care and they haven't made themselves aware of any black history or culture
How incredibly bloody rude! Lump white people into one big lazy bucket and make an assumption about why they sometimes get this wrong. I really struggle with facial recognition of white people, I rely on other clues like hair and clothing - is that because I don't care and haven't made myself aware of white history and culture? How would learning about black history and culture even help me with this? I simply cannot see the level of detail in faces that most other people can.

Mixing up two black people is a racist micro aggression (although I don't like the addition of micro as the cumulative effect on the victim is huge) because it is lazy and ignorant to define someone purely on the colour of their skin.
Accusing someone of being racist is a micro aggression because it is lazy and ignorant to assume that there is any level of intent or lack of effort and that the person is even capable of doing anything about it.

I am glad the thread has been helpful to you, Furchesterbaby

See Liar: the thread has moved on.

voiceofreason it is lazy and ignorant to not open your mind. You are either purposely missing the point, or proof of what people on this thread are telling you.

Who cares if you struggle with facial recognition of white people? This thread is not all about you! People have acknowledged that it is not always racist.

WishfulThanking no the thread has not moved on. We are not suddenly discussing the diet of pigmy marmosets or quantum physics. We are still talking about race and facial recognition.