Mistaken identity and race

[Furchesterbaby]

I know this might be a sensitive subject. I'm genuinely not wanting to cause any offence but it's something that I've wondered and wouldn't exactly feel able to speak about.

I work for a very large organisation, it's very multicultural. On a number of occasions over the years there have been incidents where two people that are black have been mixed up with one another, and it's turned quite heated and was deemed a race issue. I.e them accusing people of thinking all black people look the same.

One example was there were two guys, both were black, both had long dreads, very often new people would get them confused with one another. They were very similar in that they were the same height, both wore glasses, I knew them apart, but could see how a new person might get confused. One of the men would get very angry and once in a training session had a big rant about it and it being racist. The most significant thing in all of it was that both men had the same, fairly unusual first name, so it really could have been just mixed up surnames.

I've seen similar over the years and it's always deemed racial ignorance. It happened a few weeks ago where a young trainee was sent to ask a question, she approached the wrong person and was snapped at "I'm not X, X is the other black person".

The thing is, over the years I've regularly been mistaken for other women with the same hair colour. I worked on a team for many years with another woman, we were both red but the similarities ended there, yet we were always mixed up. There's a lady on my team now and we are the same height, hair and both wear glasses, people are always coming up to me asking if I'm this other person.

My son gets mixed up with a child at school, another boy until teachers get to know them.

So my question is aibu to think that this isn't about race?

I need to say, I'm not denying the racism and stereotyping goes on even now. I'm not trying to pretend it doesn't happen or that it's not an issue anymore. I'm not going to pretend that as a white person I can fully understand how it is to be discriminated against because of my colour. I've literally just felt at times that these things weren't about that, but I accept if there's something where I'm missing the point.

@ohtheholidays it does piss me off when some stranger try's to argue with me about where I must be from

You mean the old "Where are you from?" followed by the "No, where are you REALLY from?"

When I get that I roll my eyes so hard they are practically spinning like wheels in a fruit machine.

The guy(s) in the OP need to stop being so precious - we don't do it on purpose- we are not racists

Fuck me, that's the most ignorant thing I have heard in a long time.

Stop being so precious

I think there are 2 elements here. First, face recognition can be hard and people do genuinely find it difficult to distinguish between people from an unfamiliar group (as SeoulSurvivor said). This is just how our brains work.

But, if someone makes a mistake and then says 'oh but you look the same' instead of 'im very sorry, that is my fault', or if they start comparing to other celebrities of the same ethnicity, then it gets into racism.

If everyone could be aware that it is hard to distinguish people from different groups, and that they should make more effort to learn a face when meeting these people, then that should help.

I think it's partly an issue with human brain function. To remember people, your brain tends to have a shortcut and uses what makes them most different from others in the group. When I was at school, there were two girls with long blonde hair that they wore in a plait. One was in my year, and the other in the year above. I once mistook the older girl for my friend. Hideous mortifying school social error.

The error isn't racist the first time you make the mistake, as you may not realise how your brain works. But once you're an adult, and aware of the issue, I think it probably is.

I certainly find that as a middle-aged woman, I'm always being mixed up with others, by younger people/men. It's a sign that people aren't interested in your opinions etc.

Shotsfired I have seen that happen to be honest.

I can see my thinking is a bit blinkered. Given that minorities have to put up with such ridiculous and sometimes malicious comments. It wouldn't take too much effort to be mindful.

MaroonPencil I have done exactly the same. There is a woman in my village who I get muddled up with the Mum of one of my daughter's friends. I keep waving at her and saying Hi. She stopped me last year and asked if she knew me. I was so embarrassed.

Set against that I know I have been really aloof with people I know who I meet out of context and with parents of my kids' friends because I don't recognised people until I have met them a few times. It is really debilitating and I am sure my kids have missed out socially because I can't connect parents waiting in the school playground with the identities of children mine tell me they have been playing with, so I can't unilaterally up to a parent and suggest their child comes round for tea.

I know this is a slightly different issue, but there should be just as much awareness of facial recognition difficulties as there is of unconscious bias.

Is a lack of mindfulness the problem? Are people told there are two similar looking people with the same first name? If not then they have no way to avoid the mistake.
Staff need to be told, and shown how to recognise them.

It is racism, albeit probably unconscious
Assumptions or comments about being drug dealers IS racist, accidentally confusing a black person with another black person is not racist.

He looks nothing like any of them, and they look nothing alike so the obvious conclusion is that white people think all black people look the same.
It's not the "obvious conclusion" of what white people think, it's the reality of what ethnic groups see.
In white ethnic groups, the key facial differences between people are hair colour, hair style, eyes, facial hair. So 2 black people with afro hair genuinely do look very, very similar. In black ethnic groups, people see different facial features between each other because hair and eyes wouldn't help them identify each other.

A black Nigerian would be far more able to recognise the differences between a Ghanian and an Ethiopian. It is not racist that a white person would find that far more difficult.

I have prosopagnosia, I'm not racist, but I can manage white people better than black people simply because of their hair. I hate it when people change their hair style!

I do understand that it must be irritating for black or Asian people, but it is important to realise that it's not lazy or deliberate. There is nothing I can do about it.

My brain tends to pair people up anyway, so the two men in the OP's description would be a real challenge. There are two mothers at my kids' school who both have their hair in a bob. Even though they have different hair colour and texture and even though one is tall and elegant, while the other is shorter and more sturdy, it has taken me 3 years and a lot of effort to distinguish them from one another. I am sure they would each be mortified if they knew.

Perhaps because I live in a predominantly white area, I find white people hardest recognise - I wouldn't make the Ethiopian v Nigerian mistake here, but I probably would find it hard to distinguish one Ethiopian person from another in a room full of Ethiopian citizens. I find symmetrical faces the hardest to remember regardless of ethnicity and I find people are like lemmings - so many women of a certain age have their hair highlighted and in a similar style. Fashion has a lot to answer for.

I mistook a black man at work for his colleague recently. Both in same team, both new starters. Not racist, just couldn't remember who was who!

Ok, would people stop with the 'I am not racist' mantra. Yes, we all mix similar-looking people up...we get it... yada yada yada. This thread doesn't need any more examples of it. Nobody is calling you racist for this.

What IS racist is when BME groups try to tell you about their experiences and perceptions and you minimise it. It is offensive and white privilege in action.

White people don't really see colour in the same way people of colour do. You also have NO RIGHT to tell a black person that the way they feel is wrong if you have white privilege. Even if you disagree you shouldn't say anything because you simply don't (and will never understand) the issue. Yes I do believe it's racist if your team can't differentiate between 2 black people in your team. You work with these people regularly!

Nobody is calling you racist for this.
But they are! Both on this thread and elsewhere.
I'm not minimising what it's like for BME groups, it must be incredibly frustrating. The problem is I haven't got the first clue what I can do about it. And it's frustrating for me not being able to do any better and being criticised for it.

You sound very angry. Prosopagnosia is a recognised medical condition. There is strong evidence that it is genetically inherited and it is often associated with recognised disabilities like dyslexia and autism. My son has both prosopagnosia and ASD. I am not autistic, but I have a lot of difficulty recognising pretty much everyone I meet regardless of race. This is not white privilege. It is debilitating and I work very hard to deal with it every day so that I can do my job well. Prosopagnosia does not yet have the status of a legally protected disability and I am pretty sure that if I was honest about how much effort I have to put into recognising my students then a prospective employer would reject my application, despite the fact I have an excellent record as a successful teacher. It is a hidden and socially unacceptable disability and people with it should not be subject to lazy accusations of racism.

VoiceOfReason The first thing you can do is to not seek to minimise the experience of BME people when they try to tell you about it.

From Peggy Macintosh's 1988 essay on White Privilege:

"I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools and blank checks.

Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in Women’s Studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about white privilege must ask, “Having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?”

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive.

I began to understand why we are justly seen as oppressive, even when we don’t see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work which will allow “them” to be more like “us.”

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions which I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can see, my African American co-workers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and line of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods that fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.
I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world’s majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to “the person in charge,” I will be facing a person of my race.
If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven’t been singled out because of my race.
I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children’s magazines featuring people of my race.
I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.
I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.
I can choose public accommodations without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.
I can choose blemish cover or bandages in “flesh” color and have them more less match my skin.
I repeatedly forgot each of the realizations on this list until I wrote it down. For me, white privilege has turned out to be an elusive and fugitive subject. The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; one’s life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own.

In unpacking this invisible knapsack of white privilege, I have listed conditions of daily experience that I once took for granted. Nor did I think of any of these perquisites as bad for the holder. I now think that we need a more finely differentiated taxonomy of privilege, for some of these varieties are only what one would want for everyone in a just society, and others give license to be ignorant, oblivious, arrogant and destructive."

Geneviea You sound very angry.

Bingo!

But @voiceofreason the reason that white people cant make these distinctions between black people of completely different heritage is because they don't care and they haven't made themselves aware of any black history or culture. Equally I think there is a divide socially and many people maintain friendships with only people of their own race, perhaps not a conscious decision based on where you live and the racial diversity of the area but it is marked. I do live in a diverse area and the majority of groups of mums I see in coffee shops etc are all white or all Indian or all black groups.

You would associate certain features in white populations as Germanic or Slavic or Celtic or whatever and people bother to make the distinction, also through knowing that certain white celebrities are German or Ukranian for example and having those associations within popular culture but many people I know see black people as one homogenous group, and this is often how the media present it too.

I've seen people say on here that someone has 'typically black features' that is an example of grouping identity based only on skin colour because funnily enough not all black people have the same shaped nose or mouth. Equally Afro hair is actually massively diverse in its appearance, and not just due to styling the texture can be very different and it is offensive to say that Afro hair all looks the same because it really really doesn't.

Mixing up two black people is a racist micro aggression (although I don't like the addition of micro as the cumulative effect on the victim is huge) because it is lazy and ignorant to define someone purely on the colour of their skin. And that goes on into all aspects of appearance and the subtle differences that would be picked up between two white people wont be with two black people because of the assumption of similarity and the ignorance of diversity within a race you don't belong to. It is easy to do because skin colour is the most obvious physical difference at a first glance but that doesn't mean it's ok.

I'm not great at recognising faces, but I could still tell apart my Zimbabwean friend and my Nigerian friend from behind or at a distance even when I didn't know them that well and even though they are the same clothes size, height, very similar skin tones (at a glance) and have very similar hairstyles. I would be as likely to mistake two white people as I would two black people, but I have had many conversations with black friends about how frustrating it is so now I check myself when I think I may have a bias because of white privilege.

It's a really difficult issue. I think the important thing is to be aware that we might struggle more to perceive facial differences in people of different ethnic backgrounds and to make a real effort to recognise people (more of an effort than with people of the same ethnicity as ourselves). Personally I really struggle with recognising East Asian men who I don't know very well. There seem to me to be fewer height / hair / facial differences to help me identify people easily. It makes me very cautious about greeting somebody I see casually because I don't want to mix them up with somebody else. It's not deliberately racist, but it is something which I feel uncomfortable about.

How the fuck is it racist to mix two people up? It is a genuine mistake.
Racism is when you discriminate against people of a different race. How am I fucking discriminating against two people of a different race when I am just mixing them up because I hardly know them and they look bloody similar? It often happens to me with oriental people because they are similar looking until you get to know them. But from afar they all look pretty much the same. I am a big fan of oriental cultures and generally like oriental people and I would never ever discriminate against them in any way but FFS they do look similar to each other. If anybody dared say I am a racist because of that I will wring their fucking neck!
I used to mix up two white builders who worked in our block of flats. But the more I saw them the more I could tell them apart(they weren't twins) until there was no mistaking them anymore. There. Rant over.

WishfulThanking

I am one of those who has face blindness and am always very anxious lest I offend someone, and doubly so in case someone thinks I am being racist. This is what I am always fearing will happen:

• "Hello!"
• "I don't know you"

• "Oh I am so sorry I thought you were someone I knew"

- "Is that other person black by any chance?"

• "Er, yes"
• Well that's kind of racist, do you think all back people look the same?

Would it then be racist of me to say no, I have face blindness, I mix up people all the time (which is true,am another who relies on hair etc)? Is that minimising their experience? What should I say in that circumstance? As I say it causes me a lot of anxiety and I would like to know what the best thing to do would be in that situation.

Sorry Black not back

I think often it isn't about race.

I have terrible face blindness. I recognise people by their car, their cost, their dog, their buggy. All sorts of things.

One of my friends is Chinese and used to live down south in a town with quite a big Chinese community. He said him and his friends had one annual family pass for Legoland which they used to pass round each other. He said they never got questioned because to the people on the kiosk all Chinese people look the same. Don't think he was joking.

I am talking about minimising people's experiences in this discussion.

For example we have now had 'I'm not fucking racist and if you say I am I will wring your neck' and poster after poster trying to justify themselves even though the discussion has moved on a lot and everybody on here has accepted that it is often understandable why it happens.

Missing the point on purpose, methinks.

You don't have to be vindictive to be racist. Also, people are so defensive about the term (when applied to themselves) that they do not really stop to reflect on what it means and how it applies in their own case.
I live in a notoriously racist country where it is the worst insult and yet just bout EVERYONE is racist. To some degree. But no one will ever admit it! There are a few who are less racist than others, and there are certainly a lively population who are trying to be self-reflective enough to not be anymore. To borrow a hipster phrase, I'm pretty woke and have a pretty multicultural social circle and also study certain topics that engage with race directly, so I am maybe a bit more aware of my own internal prejudices than the average punter, but I don't think I'm not racist suddenly cause I can engage with race theory. I'd like to think I'm on my way though.
We all need to move closer to the ideal, which we can only do through self-reflection, and getting upset about it or defending it cause you 'didn't mean any harm' isn't the way forward.

Well, I was mistaken for 'Josh' the other week as we both have long curly hair!

But, I am not black. If they feel it's offensive and racist then people should make more of an effort to ensure they have the right person. I feel uncomfortable commenting when I am white and have never been on the receiving end of racism.