Transgender students may not have to reveal birth sex to play sports

[Bambambini]

"Transgender students should not have to declare their birth gender when applying to university sports clubs, the National Union of Students (NUS) is expected to rule.

It adds that trans and intersex students should not be asked to disclose their legal gender or personal medical information to participate in university sport, including details regarding hormone replacement therapy.

The motion suggests that the NUS follows the lead of Durham University’s new policy on inclusivity, whereby trans and intersex students are allowed to compete and train in whichever team “best fits their gender identity”."

Whole Telegraph article here www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

We can also look at countries where gender identity laws have been put in place already, such as the US and Canada, to get an idea of what could happen in the UK.

Danielle Muscato took up place in a womens shelter because he identifies as a woman. He is clearly very much male and has made no effort to transition or appear feminine in anyway but he was still allowed to take up place in a womans shelter because he says he is a woman.

A transwoman was allowed into a womens refuge in Canada where she (don't want to get deleted for misgendering!) went on to sexually assault two women there.

A woman had her gym membership cancelled after she complained about the obviously male person in the female changing rooms.

In a different gym the women have had to start getting changed in the toilets because a man has decided to start using the female changing rooms. Again this man is very clearly male but because they have gender ID laws over there now the women are too scared to do anything about it for fear of being labelled a bigot.

Teenage boys who identify as girls are being allowed to compete with teenage girls in high school sports teams. Again they don't need to be transitioning; they just say "I'm a girl" and that's it, that has to be accepted and can't be challenged.

Lila Perry who is again clearly a boy wearing makeup and a skirt (with no underwear on ) was allowed to change with the girls in their locker room and then called them all bigots when they didn't want to get changed with someone who is clearly a teenage boy in a skirt.

I have no idea why people still have their heads in the sand about this.

Never mind, I told someone to fuck off. I'd say they deserved it though

I see Fallon Fox (who, incidentally, was nowhere in sight in the men's rankings prior to transition and transitioned at an age when most fighters of both sexes are hanging up their gloves) and Gabriel Ludwig (in their 50s, taking up a college basketball scholarship which might have been a poor young woman from an ethnic minority's only chance of a college education) have already been mentioned.

39 year old trans weightlifter sets 4 new national records and wins clean and jerk

Eight of Iran's women's football team are transwomen

I don't see scaremongering. I see reflection on the implications for women of something that is already happening.

And this thread is not even about professional athletes who do have their testosterone levels checked regularly as part of anti-doping rules. This is about student athletes who will be up against transwomen whose only concession to transitioning is to say "I identify as a woman" (cf Daniele Muscato and Alex Drummond, both of whom still wear full beards). I used to be an (admittedly second-rate) college rower and footballer. I've rowed in mixed crews and played mixed five-a-side football, and I know from lengthy personal experience just how much more powerful male athletes are. Two transwomen with typical male levels of testosterone, or an averagely competent transwoman goalkeeper who happened to be 6'6", perhaps with a transwoman midfielder capable of scoring from 30m instead of 20m, and an all women's team wouldn't stand a chance.

It is total bullshit to say this stuff is scaremongering, or bigoted, or doesn't matter.

@AVirginLitTheCandle

Why was my post at 15:51:04 deleted?

Probably the same reason as your second post and I suspect the same reason that these threads aren't a 'discussion' so much as a 'take us on if you dare'.

It's the same people who post the same tired posts and shout down anyone with an opposing opinion on any thread like this (and fuck, they're nearly every day). If their purpose is to remind each other that men, no matter what their gender, are encroaching on women's space then that's fine as you are all achieving exactly what you set out to. If you want o persuade others or start a discussion then you're going about it all the wrong way.

@CheesyCrust so what are your thoughts on the issues I brought up in my posts at 17:07:50 and 17:20:24? What are your thoughts on men being allowed to compete in womens sports just because they say they identify as women?

If we're aggressive then it's because we're bloody tired and tired of being labelled transphobes and bigots just because we care about the rights of women and girls and disagree with self ID.

I can only take so much.

Have a read of this: www.runnersworld.com/olympics/why-the-womens-800-will-be-the-most-controversial-race-at-the-olympics

and this: www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/biological-male-dominates-womens-cycling-event-in-historic-first/

It's a farce.

Just worth noting that the Durham policy does not include rugby or football. Not because of any inherent danger or unfairness but because the relevant national sporting bodies do not allow mixed sex teams at this level.
Go figure

@AVirginLitTheCandle

I don't want to read and run but your aggressive and rude posts mean I really struggle to take you seriously and struggle to believe that taking the time to post as eloquently as possible will get me anything other than a mouthful (keyboardful?) of abuse.

I'm sure that;s what you were after, so congratulations.

Here's Fallon Fox. After Fox’s fifth straight first-round victory, it was revealed that Fox had not told the MMA community about her sex-change operation - so at least 5 woman were knocked out in seconds in a match where they did not even know they were fighting against a man.

Or how about Laurel Hubbard, a weightlifter who smashed the female world by almost 20kg. Do you think any woman can better this new record, no matter how good she is, or how hard she trains?

Or how about roller derby in the UK. A contact sport which already operates under a policy of self-determination. So men currently compete with and against women. Not only is this unfair, but dangerous for women.

Yes I'm pissed because we're constantly being told to shut up, move aside and just be nice.

I'm pissed because womens rights are being eroded left right and centre but we can't speak out about because we're labelled bigots and transphobes or get rape and death threats.

So sue me.

I'd like to ask those who've come onto the thread simply to shout "transphobes" and "same tired old arguments" some questions.

Have you ever played competitive sport?

Have you ever played mixed competitive sports (especially contact sports like football)?

Do you have daughters who play competitive sports?

Do you even care about competitive sport?

I'm a relative newcomer to this issue, and have genuinely been trying, in my relatively mild-mannered way, to gather information and engage with people. I've found a lot of difficulty in doing that. This is a pity, because I've been very shocked at the way my views have changed from liberal support of trans rights to extreme concern at the erosion of women's rights, and, as I said, wanted to have my fears allayed.

I've seen a lot of aggression on both sides. But so far the only non-aggressive, reasoned and factual arguments I've seen online have been on the gender-critical side. On the trans-affirming side, so far at best it's been subjective, emotive arguments without any backup, or sloganeering ('Trans women are women. Period.'). At worst, it's been threats of violence.

The only reasoned discussion I've been able to have was with the trans person I mentioned above, a friend IRL. I disagreed with them but didn't feel able to say so, partly because they have severe MH difficulties and react very badly to being disagreed with. This unfortunately holds true for all the trans people I know IRL.

I'm really not convinced that it's aggression on the gender-critical side that is shutting down discussion on this issue. And I already can imagine that, after a long time trying to have a discussion and being shut down, I would be angry as well.

I don't want to read and run but your aggressive and rude posts mean I really struggle to take you seriously and struggle to believe that taking the time to post as eloquently as possible will get me anything other than a mouthful (keyboardful?) of abuse.

So, that would be your lame excuse for not responding then Cheesy?
Not that you don't have a leg to stand on because AVirgin has stated facts you can't actually refute.
Off you flounce then....

To a certain kind of person, rational statements are viewed as aggressive if they conflict with their own viewpoint. One can be accused of aggression simply by being more logical than them.

I too am extremely tired of being accused of bigotry and transphobia because I think this is deeply unfair.

People who are biologically male should not be able to compete in women's sport.

That is genuinely the issue. I'm only seeing facts from one side. This may sound disingenuous, and I know nobody here knows me from Adam (possibly an unfortunate turn of phrase). But I really wanted to have my mind changed back. I really want to go back to my previous stance of supporting equality for everybody, let people just be themselves, no feminism without intersectionality. But that feels increasingly like a bubble of self-congratulation, or as lazy as a trite slogan when you really don't know what it means.

@cockwarbler

Yet another example of why these threads are an echo-chamber of a few of you agreeing with each other and shouting down any opposing views.

I think that to flounce, you have to have been engaged and have given a fuck to begin with. It's running, throwing and lifting. I don't care if a trans person is faster. I struggled to care enough to type a reply saying that I don't care. Hope that clarifies it for you.

So why did you want to contribute to a thread about sports?

So you're okay with a man competing with women?

I am open to having my mind changed CheesyCrust. Tell me why it is ok to legitimise people with male biological advantage competing against women.

I am listening, but I must say that saying you don't care so I shouldn't will not convince me.

It seems Durham uni doesn't like women much.
Good work Durham student union. Very forward thinking of you.

Wow cheesy. How have you got online all the way back there in the 1880's?!

Shakira Martin has been voted in as president not the lady shown in the article. www.independent.co.uk/student/news/shakira-martin-wins-nus-presidency-further-education-candidate-president-tom-harwood-malia-bouattia-a7703001.html

"It's running, throwing and lifting. I don't care if a trans person is faster. I struggled to care enough to type a reply saying that I don't care. Hope that clarifies it for you."

So, in other words you don't like sports at all, so don't care about fairness in sport, the fact that this is professional sportwomen's livelihoods at stake, young women's chances of college funding down the drain, girls' chances of having role models to aspire to in a society which is increasingly sedentary with rocketing levels of obesity.

Okay, at least we all know where you're coming from. It's "I don't give a shit's ville."

I personally don't give a shiny one about sports, either, if I'm honest. I'm a book-and-whiskey person myself. But all those other things that Hedgehog has listed are things that I do care about, a lot.