To Think asking Teacher whether DC is showing signs of 11+ potential, I shouldnt be subjected to her personal opionion on the 11+!

[BlowingThroughTheJasmineinMyMi]

I can't believe this or maybe this is standard practise?

At PE asking teacher - at the moment is my child showing potential to sit the 11+, instead of being told - yes , no and comments on that I had to sit and listen to her personal views on the whole 11+

Eventually I was told - 11+ is 128 and your dd recent scores are 130 so YES.

Before I got that information I was told all about her 11+ days at school, the snobbery, how she didn't do it for her dc .

Oh wasn't referring to you, I meant in general. And yes to the secrecy. It turns out more around here are tutoring than let on. Maybe I need to let my morals slip....

I don't think I'd get access to school records as a tutor but I could set and mark tests to give a baseline idea.

There wasn't any secrecy where I live.When I was looking for recommendations, I asked people who their child's tutor was and people asked me etc. What would be the point in secrecy?
The children all tell each other if they have a tutor anyway.

don't fret about the ones already being tutored either. We knew of parents getting tutors for the year 2 sats and continuing to tutor all the way through (secretly as we only found out later). These DC were promoted as 'bright' by the parents but neither got into any of the selective schools. One ended up at the local comp and the other went to a non competitive private. They obviously thought they had one up on the other parents but it didn't work out like that. Tutoring isn't a magic fix in itself.

Agree about that brassbrass: I have one of my children and probably one half of my nephews and nieces who just would never make it in that sort of test with all the tutoring in the world. They have potential in other areas and they are all brilliant imo (naturally!)

Tutoring to familiarise and train up an already capable child is a different thing again.

Yes, tutors aren't magic. Many of them just seem to get the child to practice past papers which you could probably do yourself. If a child isn't that academic a tutor won't make that much difference. Similarly, an able pupil will just need to familiarise themselves with the test papers to get in.

Gosh tutoring for year 2 sats is sad.

I was lucky my daughter didn't even know she was doing them.

blowing my post was meant to be helpful not critical. sorry if it doesn't come across like that. In our area starting yr 5 norm so was trying to point you in direction of things I'd found helpful. There is a lot of secrecy dd now yr 6 said something about looking forward to this summer with no work to do and her friend in the car said her and another classmate has been doing bond books last 3 summers.
Where I am once a week tutoring from oct yr 5 normal but it's not super selective a pass approx 75% in catchment gets in. Then past papers over summer at home.

We live in Halifax where there are 2 state grammar schools. It was my son's teacher who mentioned the 11 plus to me, I can remember it clearly as it was his 7th birthday. She said he was "grammar school material if he carried on like this". I was surprised she told me when he was so young. Her daughters had both gone to grammar school. Of course a teacher should be able to give you some idea. The Head teacher at the same school was totally against grammar schools.

I think it's reasonable that a school / teacher should comment on suitability for the next step in schooling.
Transfer days are common, and organised by the school here. Letters home and texts re open evenings etc, what's that if it's not promotion of a school?
Why should it be different if you are looking at selective schoolS?

I think it's reasonable that a school / teacher should comment on suitability for the next step in schooling.

That would be reasonable in year 6 or even year 5 (if children have to apply to do the 11+ in that year), but not year 4.
The only reason a parent would ask that early would be because they were thinking of tutoring for the exam and schools don't want them to do that.

We have a test locally that parents insist on calling the 11+, although it's actually a test for a consortium of selective "comprehensives." As a teacher, I have no idea of the content of these tests, and would therefore be very reluctant to advise any course of action to parents asking in Year 4.

schools don't want them to do that.

Why? Tutoring outside of school, for whatever reasons, helps their data. What's not to like?

Although your daughter is academically able do you think her personality suits a competitive environment? Is she resilient in stressful situations? If not maybe this was why the teacher was trying to put off you off.

One of the (many) reasons why grammar schools don't help social mobility is that some parents don't see them as a possibility for their child or aren't aware of their options. One way to improve this is for primary teachers to tell parents that it may be worth entering their child for 11+. Obviously this won't go very far to fixing the social mobility issue, but it is something and being ideologically against mentioning this to parents is a disservice to a particular subset of children.

Why? Tutoring outside of school, for whatever reasons, helps their data. What's not to like?

Grammar schools want the most academic able pupils to go to their school, rather than the most extensively tutored. They try to design the test to measure aptitude and limit the effect of tutoring but it's impossible to totally limit the effect of tutoring and that is why children from socially disadvantaged backgrounds (whose parents can't afford tutors) are less likely to get in.

Obviously this won't go very far to fixing the social mobility issue, but it is something and being ideologically against mentioning this to parents is a disservice to a particular subset of children.

I don't think they are ideologically against mentioning it to parents at the time when children are applying for the exams/schools. That wouldn't be in year 4 though.

Roomster, I was talking about primary schools' data. Fully agree that extensively-tutored kids from a young age might end up struggling in an academic school.

Roomster, I was talking about primary schools' data. Fully agree that extensively-tutored kids from a young age might end up struggling in an academic school.

I realise that but they are all state schools and if the grammar schools and/or LEA ask primary schools not to provide tuition for the exams or encourage tuition then they probably won't. I'm not sure how much it would help the primary schools results anyway as the test is quite different to SATS.

that is why children from socially disadvantaged backgrounds (whose parents can't afford tutors) are less likely to get in

I disagree. A poster on here has said their school has no issues with mentioning pupils with potential and that their G SCHOOLS are not dominated by prep school pupils.

I think disadvantaged dc - are being culled at primary schools due to attitudes - personal as displayed by that teacher. And schools who think G is a dirty word

In DF day he was told by teacher he was potential but needed work on his maths, so somehow ( not though his parents) he was able to be tutored in Maths to get him in. His dp were not interested or behind him at all. In ye olden days I think it was more a rounded view of the child to see if they would cope etc at a G school rather than the sole pressure of the test. The old way seems much better to me. Now its an uneven playing field. Some dc are told and its open others are subjected to Personal Political Opinions.

I disagree. A poster on here has said their school has no issues with mentioning pupils with potential and that their G SCHOOLS are not dominated by prep school pupils.

When I say "socially disadvantaged" I didn't mean everyone who is not from a prep school!! I meant those on low incomes etc.

It's hardly surprising that state grammar schools aren't dominated by prep school pupils because many of them will have gone to independent secondary school.

How high can these scores go?

That really depends on which school and which test! If you look on 11+ forum you can see by area, and requirements of each. Even in same area, schools have v different methods of assessment and mark required.

And i don't think the old way was better. If a pupil that was considered 'grammar material' did badly on the test, the HT could still advocate for a place. Now how open to abuse is that? Yes, of course, every single one of our children whose parents are paying £14k P.a. are grammar material, honest. Even if they didn't do well on the test, erm...

Woot - I mean in class how high can the score go.

Of course I mean normal schools not 14 pa ones

Year 4 is not too early to start thinking about the next phase. After all you apply for places at the beginning of year 6. Sometimes it takes a while thinking, perhaps moving house or like yourself looking at different types of school.
If teachers don't want to comment until year 5/6 when Parents evenings are iften late in the year it doesn't leave you long to make plans.