To Think asking Teacher whether DC is showing signs of 11+ potential, I shouldnt be subjected to her personal opionion on the 11+!

[BlowingThroughTheJasmineinMyMi]

I can't believe this or maybe this is standard practise?

At PE asking teacher - at the moment is my child showing potential to sit the 11+, instead of being told - yes , no and comments on that I had to sit and listen to her personal views on the whole 11+

Eventually I was told - 11+ is 128 and your dd recent scores are 130 so YES.

Before I got that information I was told all about her 11+ days at school, the snobbery, how she didn't do it for her dc .

My pet hate is people who tutor their children to get into grammer schools. I have seen a lot of parents (30+) who have put their kids through 3+ years of tutoring and have secured a place in the grammar school to them struggle as the tutoring is dropped as soon as they have a place and they struggle to keep up with their peers.

By all means if your child is very bright and gifted go for it. If you require a shit load of tutoring to just get a place in the school then a mainstream school is probably better for them.

I cant think of anyone more relavant to ask though than her actual teacher who sees her work and marks it confused surely the response would be either

But unless it's a prep-school, then it's not her job to know or comment, so you're asking off-job, and got a response off job, doesn't seem that unreasonable.

but that doesn't seem to be the case everywhere. As I said earlier our state primaries do speak to parents about potential grammar candidates as part of helping them to navigate the secondary transfer process. They provide information on what the options are for children moving onto secondary and what's required within each sector: SSComp, SSGS, private etc

They've just spent the last 6+ years teaching your child of course they can tell you if the child is a candidate or not. No one should have to pay a private tutor to assess their child for this! I'd be moving out of the area if that was the case and looking elsewhere.

Of course the teacher can let you know if they think it's worth the child.having a go ...

Are you say what area of the country you're in roughly OP?
Grammar schools vary hugely in terms of chances of admission. For instance, at the one I went to, the odds of a place were probably 50/50. You just had to be reasonably able and have an ok day.
These days, the odds may be 1 in 15 at some of the London state grammars.
Do you have just one school in mind or are there several grammar options? You need to find out how many applicants per place - it's a numbers game. CAT score tests are only a very rough guide, most applicants will have scores similar to your DDs. What kind of exam is it? Is there VR and NVR, or just Maths and English. Some schools use computerised tests in the first round. Will there be an interview as well?
What year is your DD in now?

We started in Year 5 with tutoring
The point isn't to push children who aren't academic enough for Grammar but to prepare them for THAT specific exam. A lot of what is on there will not be covered in the usual curriculum of an average State Primary so without at least good familiarisation via test papers they will struggle. My friend teaches at one of the local Grammars and actually invigilates the exam - she says each year there are a couple of children in tears when they turn the papers over not because they aren't able but because it's like nothing they have ever seen and parents don't know the system or think that a bright child will be ok anyway.
Maybe a very able child MIGHT be able to cope but why send them in blind?

I concur, hopping. DD said there were children in floods of tears, leaving the room, not returning. Her friend told me at one exam (there are several in our area, DD didn't sit this one) one girl opened the paper and started howling, screaming out that she'd never seen these type of questions before.
If your grammars are super-selective, being 'bright' is not enough to get by.

To make the system fair, you should be able to send them in blind if the only other option is to be tutored which not everyone can pay for.

I live in a "superselective" grammar school area and I didn't think to ask the teachers whether my children would get in as I don't think that they are meant to suggest/help/encourage. I don't know what other parents did but I think most know already if there is a good chance of their child getting in e.g. in my area parents know if their child is on on the "top table" and well above average at everything. They are also assessed by tutors as many won't take them on if there is no chance.

I didn't think to ask the teachers whether my children would get in as I don't think that they are meant to suggest/help/encourage

Why on earth should this be shrouded in such secrecy though! Why on earth can't I - or some schools actively put you off asking a simple question. I find it abhorrent.

DC with DP who are not engaged in their learning have absolutely no chance of getting in. They are being cut down before they can even try and then some people use this an excuse to get rid of Grammars.

Its appalling, why can some areas be very helpful and some areas not. Its not right.

Why on earth should this be shrouded in such secrecy though! Why on earth can't I - or some schools actively put you off asking a simple question. I find it abhorrent.

I don't think it is "shrouded in secrecy". I just don't think that they are actively meant to encourage it in my area which arguably they would be doing by discussing with parents. Having said that I don't know for sure that they don't.

Also, it is fairly clear to most parents whether their child has a chance anyway by how they are doing academically compared with their peers, whether they are on the top table etc.

This is precisely why the whole system is fucked up and shouldn't be extended.

For comparison, my DC were / are in an independent prep in London and 99% will go on to independent secondaries, many of which are more competitive than the grammars, plus you have to have good interview skills and notable extra curricular achievements to boot! A super academic child who is shy or awkward at interview may well not be offered a place. It's super-stressful.
At our school, individual teachers will generally not give you CAT scores at parents evenings, because competitive parents tend to get carried away with these things and apply for schools based on these alone. Teachers do not see it as their role to advise you on future schools. However, this is because there us a formal process early in Year 5, when all parents have a scheduled hour long meeting with the head who will advise suitable schools based on the child's ability and personality. The head will also tell you in no uncertain terms if your child doesn't have a cat in hells chance of getting into a particular school. The head can (and does) refuse to write your child a reference if she feels you are setting your child up for a failure. Further meeting can be held if needed. Children sit for about 4 schools, all with their own particular exams and interview processes. It's highly stressful, but you are guided through by the prep head and nobody just goes off applying for schools "willy nilly" so to speak.
You may have more luck if you speak to the head.

I should clarify that when I said they are not meant to encourage it, I meant they are not meant to encourage parents to get private tutors for their children which is basically what you wanted to know if your child is only in year 4. I suspect that if someone asked whether they should enter their year 6 (or year 5 if that is when the exams are) they might get a more helpful answer.

"DP need to know as well if their DC is struggling though." but not being eleven plus material doesn't necessarily equal struggling. As a parent you presumably know if your DC is bright? In which case you would seek tuition for her or at the very least get hold of some of the test books (you can buy them on amazon) to see whether she struggles or does ok.

And bear in mind that if a teacher tells a parent that their child should be eleven plus candidate then that parent will have a certain level of expectation, even though the eleven plus has quite a high pass mark. For me, if I were told that my DC's levels are at 130 and the pass mark for eleven plus is 128 I would think twice about whether they were suitable, because it doesn't leave much room for having a bad/stressful day when exam time comes round and with such a narrow margin between current scores and the pass mark I would think it highly possible that they wouldn't pass, and that IMO is far worse for them than not putting them forward in the first place.

Ops dd is only yr 4 though and if she is pass standard now then yes she is likely to be a candidate for 11 plus at start of yr 6

Dixie- i assumed that was CATS score, not a past paper mark.

Yes, it would be standardised for her age I assume. In my area, the "pass" score for grammar school is often a lot lower than the actual lowest score to get in though. They can only let a certain number in and so just take the highest scores which varies slightly each year.

Have you read all the grammar school admissions info. I know the one near us says something like should be working level 5 when they sit the exam (1st few weeks of year 6) this is one with a catchment so not super selective. Not sure what new levels equivalent is, but I can't see any reason why teacher can't give you her current level in Maths and English. I'd also recommend 11 plus forum for advice, test varies a lot depending where you are. Dd saw a private tutor once a week from Nov yr 5. She was above pass standard in vr and English when she started(tutor does tests at start) maths though they were tested on whole yr 6 curriculum and beyond 3 weeks into yr 6 so she needed someone to teach it her. We also did the recommended papers in summer before to familiarise and get her speed up. No matter how bright you are you are not going to answer 80 vr questions age 10 in 50 mins if you have never seen that type of question before, have never sat an exam and are unfamiliar with filling in a computer marked answering sheet.

For me, if I were told that my DC's levels are at 130 and the pass mark for eleven plus is 128 I would think twice about whether they were suitable

How high can these scores go?

dixie I have not totally applied myself to it all yet, I was going to wait till school holidays, then have a look at everything.
I thought that was the normal time to start as it were.

I just wondered as I said because many of her classmates are already in special classes.

I used to teach at a superselective grammar. I think it's such a shame when a child has been intensively tutored in order to get in. So many kids worked so hard to get a "b" in some subjects and then felt a failure for doing so. And the intensity was too fast.

I will ensure familiarity with the test paper and that's it.

Every now and then I think setting myself up as an 11+ tutor (ex grammar teacher...) would be lucrative, as seen by poster above! But I ethically can bring myself to do it.

Dont worry country we are not at the intensively tutored stage yet, we are not even at the - do you think my dc will be grammar material stage yet.

It feels very secretive at the school too - I wouldn't ask any other dp about this.

Perhaps your unconscious would allow to appraise students on their 11+ potential, get access to their school records and so on? Fill in the gap the teacher may refuse to fill.