(Trigger Warning!!!) To think labour pain is not respected by healthcare professionals?

[Goldfishshoals]

Warning: you probably don't want to read this if pregnant/about to give birth!

Three weeks ago I gave birth. I had back labour - truly agonising. The pains started on Friday, but because they were about five-six minutes apart they were arbitrarily considered 'pre-labour' rather than actual labour (despite hurting as much as 'real' labour pains). They continued like that for four days, in which time I obviously got no sleep. I called the midwife for help several times and was fobbed off with 'take paracetamol', which unsurprisingly did bugger all for the intense stabbing sensation in my back every contraction. After one call in which I cried they let me come in (30 mins car ride there and back in pain!) and have a single dose of coedine (barely took the edge off) before sending me home.

On Tuesday my waters broke so I was finally allowed in the hospital for monitoring - I pretty much immediately begged for pain relief. 'of course you can have some!' said the midwife breezily before buggering off for fifteen minutes leaving me in pain. Then she came back and said she just had to ask a few questions then 'we'd see' about getting me some pain relief... I did eventually get given some gas and air.

My contractions never became more frequent on their own and eventually I ended up being induced with epidural - which wore off just in time for me to be fully dialated. First they said they'd get me more - then they said it was too late and gave me gas and air - which they took off me again when it was time for pushing. I begged for pain relief (for anything!) and was ignored. I struggled to push but the pain was overwhelming and stopped me being able to push fully. Baby eventually delivered with forceps, and episiotomy which I could barely feel in contrast to the agony I had been in.

I had third degree tear which needed stitching, and suddenly everything changed. I had an anaesthesitist numb me fully, and keep checking my pain levels for the theatre, I had a few days in hospital with three types of pain relief thrown at me, and I was sent home with boxes of unnecessary coedine etc, for the incredibly minor soreness of the stitches.

When I compare other hospital visits (for being run over by a car as a teen, and a more recent dvt) it's a similar story. My pain was taken a lot more seriously and I was given better pain relief much more quickly, despite them not being nearly as painful as my back labour.

I realise not everyone has back labour, and some people have much less painful births (lucky cows) but surely having high levels of pain isn't that unique? So why wasn't it treated seriously? The only thing I can think of is that labour pain just isn't respected. Aibu to think this?

Don't worry for me. Worry for the women you think should have unnecessary major abdominal surgery who will have a longer recover, who statistically will be more likely to have a serious infection postntatally, who are exposed to the risks of an operation, who will statistically have more complex second or subsequent pregnancies.

Nah, I'm still worrying for you because now we can add shit comprehension to the list. Do you honestly not know the difference between thinking women should have a section and they should have the option of one?

Feel for the babies who are statistically more likely to have respiratory problems after a csection.

More likely compared to what? Not VB generally, VB with back to back, carrying as it does the greater risk of complicated VB. Where are your stats?

And while we're at it, let's see you back up your claim that women having a section at the start of labour will have lengthier and more complex recoveries than women who deliver back to back babies vaginally. Not all VBs, that subgroup.

I also note with interest that you don't bother mentioning the problems that women delivering by ELCS will be at lower/no risk of compared to women having VBs. Funny that.

Back to back is not a reason for a section. Really.

No, but it's a reason why women should be given the option of one. Really.

After my third was born it was change over. My m.w delivered ds and she was lovely but then I was left in a bed, covered in blood, told there's a shower there if you want it. My husband was holding baby and I tried getting up but dripped blood on the floor all over my stocking things they put on me. I rang bell for help and she couldn't be arsed. Walked with me to the shower but didn't want to help, stood and watched me struggling. Said oh maybe if you didn't feel up to it you shouldn't have had one. Later I read in notes " asked to have a shower and she was helped with shower" or words to that effect. Was I balls.

But if a woman wants pain relief, then it is completely up to her

I don't fully agree...and I don't think any kind of pain relief should be automatically granted at any stage/in any situation tbh.

With ds1 (induced with drip and back to back) I would have screamed for/agreed to anything to make it stop.
I can remember getting to the stage where I literally didn't care if I lived or died, as long as it stopped. I don't think I was in any fit state to be responsible for any kind of decision at that point tbh.

Just because something is possible doesn't mean it should be a right...if epidurals were completely 'freely' available, you'd have some women at period pain stage labour choosing then after half an hour which would be stupid considering the risks they bring.

Money is definitely part of it batteries but it's a particular attitude to money. It isn't about what's cheaper overall, it's about short term, but there are also ways in which some people will overlook cost factors in favour of ideological ones.

So for example, the effects of dealing with VB complications later down the line aren't considered at all. They come out of a different NHS pot. That's somewhat understandable: not saying I agree with it, but I do see that if you're only in charge of maternity budget, and you're squeezed, saying let gynae and physio deal with it down the line has a certain logic to it.

But then you also get people eg refusing to consider that allowing maternal request ELCS for all women is obviously going to reduce the absolute numbers of EMCS, instrumental deliveries and severe tears, because those things are all risks of attempted VB. Some of the women who experience those would have chosen ELCS if they could, and those are the really expensive births for the NHS. There is a reason why ELCS doesn't think allowing women to choose ELCS costs more!

Ah yes, woman can't be trusted to know what's best for them.

Slow hand clap.

This thread brought has brought back terrible memories of my ds birth, my first child 18 years ago. After being treated like shit by the midwives I was then forced to have internals against my wishes by 1 in particular and it was a living hell, I felt violated and out of control and for quite a while afterwards I had flashbacks and nightmares. I was refused an epidural by the same midwife and gas and air machine didn't work and neither did the pethidine. I ended up giving birth with no pain relief whatsoever.

I've never forgotten the pain of those internals, not ever and I'll never forget that bitch of a midwife either, horrible horrible woman. THe mw who delivered ds though was amazing as was her student. I still tore badly but was left institched with my feet in stirrups for 2. 5 hours because the doctor was called away to assist another birth.

That was to Secret btw not you Elisaveta

Why the need to be so snide?

I've posted my own experience and thoughts just like everyone else. I doubt I'm completely unique.

The patients wishes should obviously be considered but when someone's in the most extreme pain they're likely to ever be in, do you not think that it's possible they're not in the best frame of mind to be making such huge decisions off the cuff? Can you not avcept that there will be a point in some births where professional decisions have to take precedent at some point?

Secret you are too much. Please tell me you aren't a mw with that abysmal attitude.

I had an unexpected pregnancy. When I was actually admitted to hospital, they were more interested in that and the lack of prenatal appointments etc than they were dealing with the state I actually presented in. If they hadn't, I wouldn't have needed surgery weeks later. Not expecting a crystal ball, but I do expect some common sense.

Just because we're women doesn't mean we get to override medical knowledge completely. A friend of mine was refused the epidural she requested when she was 9cm and about to push. She gave birth twenty minutes later. Should she have been allowed one? Really? Just because she asked and it should have been 'her right' (and the anesthetist was there already so it could have been done).

Who are you to decide that a woman doesn't have a right to choose an epidural secret??

Secret you are too much. Please tell me you aren't a mw with that abysmal attitude

What specifically has offended you so much Won?

My very good friend was denied an elective whilst pregnant with her second. Her experience of giving birth to her first was the stuff of nightmares. I was so angry for her. How could they let her go through that again? Given the details it should have been a priority. I discussed it once with a friend who is a consultant who only does CS's and she said it should have been an elective.

So you think someone about to push, after a 6 hour labour with no complications should be instantly granted an epidural egg? Quite possibly in the final minutes but something that is known to possibly stretch that out to hours should be agreed just like that?

as far as I am awear there is no study that compares recovery from a section to recoverey from specifically a long back to back vaginal labour. So those were typical risk factors for section vs vaginal. We don't know which will be long when they start. Sometimes we think they might be (I have been very wrong about that in the past and had people progress quickly when I was certain it would be lengthy) and conversely I have had people have very long labours that I thought would be quick! It's unpredictable, literally to the last moment. And things like the cord snapping - sometimes they just do. Not because the midwife is incompetent.

Women can request an elective section without any medical reason - that's nice guidelines now. But women still need to counciled on the risks of choosing that option.

I don't understand your argument for your own experience Secret. It sounds as though it doesn't matter how bad the pain was you would never have consented to an epidural under any circumstances? So you could have had that written in your birth plan. Or do you mean you would have requested one at the time but afterwards regretted it? Why would you have regretted it?

Regarding the woman who was too close to giving birth - no one has said women should be given epidurals on request without any clinical assessment at all. That's a false argument.

Anyway, I am very saddened by all your experiences and I am sorry for the poor standards of care you have all had to endure. One to one care should be standard to support women in whatever they choose (that is certainly how I practice). Epidural should be available if requested and not denied unreasonably (if pushing it takes about 30-40 mins to set up and start working so baby will already be born). And if someone chooses an elective then that should be supported. I in no way meant to offend anyone. Caring for women is my life honestly.

Of course the experts should have say in that kind of scenario, ie woman asking for epidural but baby will be delivered by the time it kicks in. But equally, when the woman says something doesn't feel right, that shouldn't be dimissed. And the paperwork/protocol side of it all is ridiculous when you're dealing with individuals and unpredictable outcomes.

Later I read in notes " asked to have a shower and she was helped with shower" or words to that effect. Was I balls.

Ah yes, the, ahem, 'creative' record-keeping.

My notes said "Unable to change patient's DVT stockings as hubby was lying on bed." Nurse/midwife had said nothing to us about changing stockings- DP would of course have moved if they'd said they needed me on bed for this reason - in fact I got DP to change them as no sign of staff doing it (they had dried waters, blood, vomit on so pretty minging.

"I caught Sprogletsmuvva using a spoon to feed baby." No, I'd asked about possibly using a teaspoon to get milk into her as she just wasn't latching on to feed (not getting checked for tongue tie until 4 wks, a whole 'nother thread)

"Patient was shown how to express" The biggest load of bollocks. HCP v reluctantly (eye-rolling etc) took me to the expressing room, gave me a bottle, flicked a switch and said, "Turn it on here, turn it off when you're done," and that was it. I honestly learned how to use the equipment entirely from notices stuck up round the room.
Went back to the same woman once milked to ask for advice on cup-feeding (my confidence was rock-bottom by this time): she just handed me the cup and said, "Feed your baby." Cue me nearly drowning poor DD and woman snatching cup back out of my hand.

The obsession with paperwork pissed me off more than anything when I had DD. I get that it was an unusual situation, but it was like they had no idea how to handle it.

Pressed post too soon. sproglet that sounds horrific :( they don't see individuals, they see statistics and protocol. That's the problem.

And people still wonder why I don't want children! I needed oramorph to cope with two badly slipped discs. I've always been adamant I wouldn't be able to cope with labour pain and the thought terrifies me

Ollivander :(

I still maintain that horrific endometriosis pain for years is the reason I did most of my labour before I realised I was in labour. Emphasis on the most of part of that. Then it all went to shit.

Can you not avcept that there will be a point in some births where professional decisions have to take precedent at some point?

Unless the mother has been declared lawfully mentally incapable of making decisions and understanding the consequences, then NO, I do not accept that!

By all means fully explain to the mother what options are and all of the possible consequences of each option. It is then surely (morally and legally) up to the woman to decide? Or do we live in a country where doctors/other health care professionals can just do what they like to people with no consequences?