To be asked to take minutes?

[Bottlesoflove]

I went to a monthly meeting I had not attended before, I am in a professional role and I work in a team of three, with two other male colleagues (all of the same "rank"). All three of us were there. My boss said the secretary couldn't come so could I take minutes? I had never been to one of these meetings before so not aware of the "format" they usually take, plus I have never taken minutes before, plus I didn't know the names of many of the people in the room... so I said "oh I don't know, not sure I would do a great job, maybe x or y could do it?" (My two other male colleagues - both been in the job slightly longer and would have attended this meeting before). At which point my boss said begrudgingly "don't worry I'll do it" and made me feel bad for making a senior do it. My two male colleagues just sat there.

Am I reading too much into this, or is there a hint of everyday sexism here? I was one of the only females there. It seemed he would rather make a big point of doing it himself than asking another professional male to do it, even though they were junior to him...🤔

I think you handled that just right, op.

Wrt effectively silencing the woman by asking her to take notes: if it's really an unavoidable task, then I suggest using the record function on your phone and telling everyone you're recording the discussion so as to capture all the detail and also so you'll be able to chip in as needed. Ignore faces.

When doing this, note the time you started recording on a notepad and note the times of key points on the same notepad - this will make it easier to find these later on. It's a ballache but at least you won't be forced into sitting silent and furiously scribbling (been there).

It was your boss's responsibility to organise secretarial cover

This, absolutely. Well done for saying no.

Your response was the only correct one! And if your boss has ever attended any management training he will know that.

Yep, everyday sexism! As a doctor, you ought to have known all females carry the gene for minute taking 😉 Seriously, it's annoying and demeaning the assumptions that get madw. Good on you for standing your ground.

Just seen the note upthread about killing chitchat you only need to start the device going when the proper discussion actually starts! I stand by my recorder, it gets the job done.....

Well, he probably asked you for sexist reasons, that you were a girl, but it isn't all bad.

Writing the minutes is an opportunity I would encourage you to prepare for, and grasp with both hands.

In that situation, I would say that i was happy to minute the decision and action points (rather than capturing everything everyone bored on about for hours...). Once that is agreed, it gives you the power in the meeting, to ask for clarification of 'what action has been agreed' or 'what have we actually decided'. You are ostensibly asking for a one line summary for the minutes. If the action is clear, you can say 'so we have decided that the Christmas party will be held on and be organised by rather than ask what has been decided.

More often the discussion has just petered out, with everyone thinking their point has been the one that is agreed. When someone asks for clarification , if everyone says something different, well you have got them to see that they haven't yet really got a decision. Whatever you say is the action will be it, unless someone disagrees.

If it is too complicated for you to capture/understand, catch the eye of whoever sounds confident or whoevers version you want to have happen and ask them (just a glance will do it, you are telling really) that you will check the details with them afterwards.

Writing the minutes is a very, very useful job. It is not uncommon for people to forget from one meeting to the next what actually happened. The person who writes the minutes to an extent decides what the record shows happened in the meeting, so within limits, you can emphasise things close to your heart and de-emphasise this you don't agree with.

The first couple of times you do it, especially in an area at you don't understand too well, it's always good to arrange for someone to review what you have produced , maybe the chair or someone nominated by the chair, in order to avoid any howlers.

It becomes a lot easier with practise, it also means that you are fully engaged in the meeting and build an understanding of what is going on. You have shown yourself to be very useful and you have become part of the management team. This is a platform that you can exploit. If discussion is getting bogged down, you can say 'shall we take this off line with x and y' and then, you are having a meeting with x & y and getting them to sort something out. You are also providing the record of what happened back to the meeting for their approval.

Meetings which are run focused in decisions and actions work much better, are done. More quickly and hence much more popular with people. People who otherwise might have tried to get out of it, will be prepared to give their expertise.

You will find yourself known by name by more senior people, who might then fight to have you included in whatever they do. This is especially important in larger organisations, where building your network is so important.

And if the chair doesn't like the decisions and actions only approach, you know to keep a wide birth in future. Maybe track his secretary's schedule and turn up a tad late anytime she is likely to be away.

It certainly worked for my career, all the best.

I manage a small team and when we have a monthly team meeting my two male members of the team always seem shocked/surprised when I ask them to take their turn at taking the minutes

Finally here - as much as I would love to "grasp the opportunity with both hands" there are many other skills I would like to acquire that I don't have time for, and unfortunately, taking minutes is not one of them. Especially since my job (thankfully) rarely involves attending meetings, and when it does, I'd rather be involved in the discussion, thanks.

I only "refused" because I was put on the spot and a bit flustered, I would have given it a go if there was no one else there who could do it, but as it happened I just suggested someone who I thought would be better placed to do it. (And not just merely by their absence of a Y chromosome)

do you feel that you could raise this with your boss? Not in a militant way but for the reasons you said - not being familiar with the people and issues etc. its important to let him know you were not just being precious about minute taking because you are a 'professional'.

Then say " I wondered also why you didn't ask my two (male) colleagues, who have attended this meeting before?'

maybe he is the sort of boss who would look inwards and be mortified he could be seen as sexist. Maybe he wasn't being (or wasn't aware he was) or maybe he doest care and absolutely was!

Definitely sexist.

More fool your boss for not having a backup plan for his sec not turning up.

FinallyHere

".......Bishop Drunah, secretary to the Congress of Iams. People might not think that was much of a position of power, but then they'd never been minutes secretary of slightly deaf old men".

Terry Pratchett - Small Gods

Of course, it's what you are there for.

Sexist bastard.

.....minutes secretary TO A MEETING of slightly deaf old men"

Dammit - quote fail!

LaContessa

Sexism. You did well with your response.

Everyone in a professional environment should know how to take minutes. I suggest you read "Roberts rules of order" which describes the typical process for holding formal meetings (it is based off parliamentary procedure and used worldwide in government, community and corporate environments).

It was an opportunity for you to introduce yourself to everyone when you went around after the meeting to record the attendees. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, this was a positive chance for you to get quickly up to speed and you squandered it.

Not necessarily. In my experience the person asked to minute is normally the one who is expected to input least to the meeting. So if your two male colleagues are deeply involved with the project being discussed it would be impossible for them to both minute and input properly to the meeting. It would make the meeting a bit pointless.

You say you are new and haven't attended the meeting before so in this case that is probably you. The first time attending a meeting is normally a time when you observe and see how the land lies rather than actively contributing so taking notes would have possibly been beneficial to you too.

Yep, absolutely sexism, and absolutely not your job.

Part of my job is to take minutes and even I'd refuse if I'd not done them for that meeting before (at such short notice anyway!). You at least need time to be told what format they like and to agree time to type them up afterwards. Decent minutes take ages.

It was an opportunity for you to introduce yourself to everyone when you went around after the meeting to record the attendees. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, this was a positive chance for you to get quickly up to speed and you squandered it.

Oh please. You can introduce yourself, if you're so minded, without also having to take the minutes.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder. I only considered after it may be sexist. It is a monthly meeting - not discussing any "project" and I was expected to be involved as much as my colleagues are. We rotate every few months, so I was not that much newer than them, just a bit. As it turned out some of the main points of discussion were rota issues that could affect patient safety so us junior doctors had the most to say about this as we were working on the front line and as I was the newest member of the team my opinion was sought as I was coming in with "fresh eyes". So I don't think I "squandered" anything, it would have been difficult for me to be truly engaged in the conversation if I'd been getting flustered with trying to write everything down.

It might have been sexism, but I also think it was no big deal. You could have done and showed you're a good team player and next time pass the task to a male colleague?

I wonder if this sexism thing is just getting too much these days...

In my point of view he asked you to do the minutes because women are BETTER at the task than men, not because he values you less. It's not a shaming task to do. There's a reason why so many secretaries out there are women: because we do a hell of a better job than men! Women are more focused, organised and multitasking than any men.

Women are better at managing, taking notes, organising thoughts/conversations, etc.

I don't think he was being rude or trying to insult you, it's just he thought you would do a better job.

Besides, what's the best way to learn how to do something you never done before than actually trying to do it??

sexism. Definitely. My DD went into a male orientated environment for work experience, supposedly as part of that industry's push to recruit more females. Think technical bit like engineering. On the first day, she was put onto typing. Being so young she was worried about saying anything, so she stayed on typing all week apart from when she was shown how to manage the men's diaries.

Its straightforward sexism.

I do a lot of informal mentoring to young women in my (very male) industry. The first things I tell them are:

• never make the tea
• never take the minutes

Once you are established and known and respected then you can make all the tea you like but as a woman, if your introduction to new colleagues is as the tea maker/minute taker then that impression will stick.

It doesn't matter how important minute taking is, you can't effectively take notes and be part of the discussion so by making you the minute taker they are also excluding you from the meat of the discussion (intentionally or unconsciously the result is the same).

Lovely defence of good recording, FinallyHere, but I don't think anyone's saying taking minutes isn't important. It's been a feature of most of the jobs I've done and I quite enjoy it as well as (in the past, before my marbles took a spin) being quite good at it. It's a learned skill that's honed with practice. If you want minutes taken properly what you absolutely don't do is say "hmm... secretary not here... who's the nearest person who looks most like a secretary?"