To be asked to take minutes?

[Bottlesoflove]

I went to a monthly meeting I had not attended before, I am in a professional role and I work in a team of three, with two other male colleagues (all of the same "rank"). All three of us were there. My boss said the secretary couldn't come so could I take minutes? I had never been to one of these meetings before so not aware of the "format" they usually take, plus I have never taken minutes before, plus I didn't know the names of many of the people in the room... so I said "oh I don't know, not sure I would do a great job, maybe x or y could do it?" (My two other male colleagues - both been in the job slightly longer and would have attended this meeting before). At which point my boss said begrudgingly "don't worry I'll do it" and made me feel bad for making a senior do it. My two male colleagues just sat there.

Am I reading too much into this, or is there a hint of everyday sexism here? I was one of the only females there. It seemed he would rather make a big point of doing it himself than asking another professional male to do it, even though they were junior to him...🤔

It does sound sexist as described. Minutes can be important, and controlling them can be powerful, although if of any real importance they will be approved/doctored by the Chair.

The main objection is that it is difficult to participate fully in a meeting if your attention is absorbed with scribbling down what everyone else is saying. That said, some people are excellent at note-taking, others are useless. When I chaired meetings I always had a junior take the minutes (as less likely to participate fully) but s/he had to know something of the matter and I was happy for interruptions to clarify so the note was accurate.

While a generalisation, minutes shouldn't be pages of he said/she said but a summary of the main points and the conclusion or plan decided on.

The most important meetings were of course never minuted.

It is very definitely sexist and has happened to me in a Managemrnt Consultancy role but 10 years ago - was hoping things may have changed by now !

Omg all this drama over a set of minutes. Why didn't you just record the meeting and hand the recording to the secretary when she returned? A bit of common sense wouldnt go amiss here.

As someone who works in a health setting myself I'm really shocked to hear you're a Dr, OP. This is shocking level of sexism and I would have expected far better in the NHS (if you are in the NHS?

You need to know what is critical and what is not. You need to know what has to be recorded. You need to be able to say "so what is the actual decision here & who is responsible for it?" It. Is. A. Skill.

^^ this.

At a school pta meeting recently, I volunteered to take minutes as the secretary couldn't attend. There are styles, nuances and rules that apply in any setting, and a newcomer, of any gender, cannot be expected to intuitively know with no forewarning how to capture the key points. I didn't know (for example) that in our set-up attributing views to named persons is not 'de rigeuer', and I was unclear whether general discussion v actions agreed were to be reported. On the grounds of inexperience and newness, irrespective of gender, YWNBU were right to demur.

There was no drama clazzer. Did you not read my op? Was just pondering it afterwards that's all, so thought I'd mention it on here, what with it being a discussion forum and all that.

Also don't think the tone of my op was particularly "moan-y", as others had pointed out if I deliberately sought things to moan about to colleagues I'd never stop! Most things I just get on with, just didn't do this as it was out of my area of experience/skills, politely suggested someone else might be better placed to do it.

I'm sure your normal working life is so devoid of drama you are just waiting for something exiting to happen

Op did you consider it as an opportunity for your career? Could have led to a nice little job for you

"didn't know (for example) that in our set-up attributing views to named persons is not 'de rigeuer', and I was unclear whether general discussion v actions agreed were to be reported."

The Chairperson should be checking the minutes afterwards and a copy of the minutes of the previous meeting should have been available at your meeting so that you could see the format.

A bit of common sense wouldnt go amiss here.

Indeed it wouldn't clazzer. But from the person who asked OP to do the minutes in the first place instead of one of the people who's done it before and knows everyone's names.

OP you state that the your 2 male colleagues are the same rank as you and that they (but not you) had attended the meeting before. If you're all equal how is this the case?

I agree with your reasons for not minuting, it made no sense at all for you to do it!

And this:

"It's claiming sexism for no reason that holds women back in business, we get labelled as trouble makers and get left out of things for fear that we'll go running off to HR if we don't like what we've been asked to do"

Isn't it sexism itself that creates the unreasonable fear of a claim of sexism?!!

that your 2 male colleagues

Sorry fat fingers, small keypad!!

Well done for saying no.

Women are not naturally better minute-takers.

The person who is least-familiar with the meeting is not the best person to take notes on it.

I especially liked @Anniegetyourgun 's comment on "hmm... secretary not here... who's the nearest person who looks most like a secretary?"

I know you've said "don't tell me well done" but I think you deserve a well done anyway.

It's HARD to say no to things, even when we know we should. We're trained to be nice and polite and do as we are asked and not make a fuss.

YANBU. Well done for saying no.

Crazy - we are all SHOs but some of us are on 4 month blocks and others on 6 month blocks, so hence there is aslight overlap with the changeover - but we are all in the same "school year" as it were, we are just rotating round specialities at different times.

"I'm sure your normal working life is so devoid of drama you are just waiting for something exiting to happen"

You got me Stealth! 😉😂

Minute taking should only be done by someone not participating in the meeting. As a lowly admin monkey I have minuted many a meeting badly and I know how hard it is to keep up with all that is being said. There is no way you could do that and play an active professional role in the meeting. I think if you had said yes it would have further undermined your position as you would have had to keep pretty quiet in the meeting to follow what was going on for the sake of the minutes (plus you can't easily contribute to a meeting and minute what you are saying at the same time), making you appear more and more like a secretary. Then when you inevitably produce minutes with gaps etc, you get pulled up for it again - not fair when it's not your job!

Well done for saying no, I am too much of an appeaser to stand up for myself like that!

Minute taking should only be done by someone not participating in the meeting

Almost never happens in most NHS meetings I go to. SImply aren't spare admin staff for it. And definitely not for something like a rota meeting which mainly involves junior doctors.

When I became a consultant one of the main things I had to learn was what my secretary was for - I'd had so little dealings with admin staff uptil then, I had no idea.

Something very similar happened to me once. (It was my first time in the monthly meetinb as i had recently changed roles)

But it was a meeting with all women.

Was that sexist?

squishysquirmy Thu 20-Apr-17 09:10:53
"The danger of going out of your way to be helpful, and "being a team player" is that it can backfire horribly: You end up with a lot more work to do than your male peers (who aren't expected to do the same amount of extra donkey work)"

This ime is a major way sexism manifests itself in the academic world. I can think of so many female colleagues whose careers never seem to take off though their research is very interesting and their teaching excellent. If you look more closely, you invariably see that they do a higher proportion of non-career-enhancing donkey work then the similarly aged males in their department. Several female colleagues have left academia for this very reason.

(disclaimer: not including myself in this: I just took ages to write the book )

ouch: "than", not "then".

"The minute taker is in an incredibly powerful position in any meeting - you decide what gets minuted and what doesn't."

If its such a powerful position, why werent any of the others volunteering for it when asked? The OP is a Doctor, that should already be a powerful enough position, she doesnt need to supplement it with admin work.

Pidgeon.

No.

Your point?

Pidgeon: No.
Because the circumstances were completely different to what the op described.
But if you had felt that you were not the best person to be taking minutes in that situation, I am sure that you could have politely spoken up, just as the op did.