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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to not understand why "normal" people vote Tory?

999 replies

olddogsnewtricks · 18/04/2017 15:37

OK, so I'll probably get flamed for this but am genuinely interested! All the people I know who vote Tory are pretty well off so use private schools and healthcare. As a family we need the NHS and we need a good education system - and I can't see them getting any better under the Tories. Are these just not priorities for Tory voters or do they really believe they will improve even with a Conservative government?

OP posts:
lottieandmia · 23/04/2017 09:23

'Are you unaware that some people can't afford to feed their children?'

I think posters are objecting to universal free school meals.

RainbowsAndUnicorn · 23/04/2017 09:23

Then they shouldn't of had them but now they are there they should be doing anything needed to provide for them. It's a very basic of parenting. What sort of parent fails to feed a child?

Given the generous levels of benefits for those that don't provide themselves, there is no reason for children to not be fed whatsoever.

lottieandmia · 23/04/2017 09:27

I think you mean 'shouldn't have had them'

Free school meals have been a standard thing for years - I don't think that should change for people who qualify. Universal free school meals I don't agree should be a priority.

Pinkandwhiteblossoms · 23/04/2017 09:32

Perversely, many parents who genuinely can't afford to feed their children - or at least those who would struggle to do so - often don't take up the offer of FSM.

But at any rate I do not see any justification for providing meals for everybody in the hope it will include a handful of children who otherwise would not have had a school lunch.

rookiemere · 23/04/2017 10:24

In Scotland there are free school meals for all P1-3 and free medical prescriptions for all, oh and a welcome basket of stuff to all new mothers. To me it just seems like a waste of money for those people who can afford to pay for them. I find it ridiculous that I don't pay for prescriptions. Will be interesting to see what happens if there is Scottish independence as somebody has to pay for all of this stuff and I'd rather do it directly and at source rather than pay more later through my tax.

I do not agree with a lot of what the Tory government has done, but equally we don't live in an age of unlimited funds.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/04/2017 10:31

I do not agree with a lot of what the Tory government has done, but equally we don't live in an age of unlimited funds.

Unless its for weapons of mass destruction or tax cuts and breaks for the already wealthy and corporations Hmm

TheMonkeyandthePlywoodViolin · 23/04/2017 10:33

Lots of things can happen between having a child and them being at school Rainbow. Not all people who are poor are feckless and shouldnt have had kids. Unless you watch channel 5

TheMonkeyandthePlywoodViolin · 23/04/2017 10:34

Rookiemere it is actually cheaper to give free prescriptions than to adminster means testing or charges

TheMonkeyandthePlywoodViolin · 23/04/2017 10:34

Lottie..i was addressing rainbows

JanetBrown2015 · 23/04/2017 10:44

Justanother, never have the highest earners had a higher tax burden so I don't think it's very fair to suggest there is some kind of current free for all for higher earners not to pay tax. We have never in British history as every study shows paid as much of the tax burden. We are nearly breaking under the burden of massive taxes actually.

TheMonkeyandthePlywoodViolin · 23/04/2017 10:44

"Nearly breaking"..how offensive to those who are actually living in poverty.

darceybussell · 23/04/2017 11:07

I'd just like to add that although I take the point that corporation tax has been cut in order to try and attract businesses to the UK, lots of other taxes have been increased for higher earners and there have been lots and lots of anti-avoidance measures.

For example we have had legislation to increase taxes on fund managers, the dividend tax credits have been removed (that will have been quite expensive for an awful lot of business owners), legislation on Phoenix companies, mixed partnerships and transactions in land.

I just wanted to put across that it isn't quite so black and white as 'the tories have given big tax breaks to rich people'. You don't see these things as they're not in the media, but for example lots of wealthy fund managers are now taxed on their capital gains at 47% instead of 20%. I'm not against that, they can take it, they earn a truckload of money - but the point is that was a Tory policy.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/04/2017 11:17

What irks me as well if I'm honest is you see a lot of the tory voters (I dont mean that as a snide quip) trot out the line 'of course those with disabilities should be protected of course' but were not being protected AT ALL!!!, yet you still wont send a message to the government that you dont support these cuts (I have a feeling a lot of the tory voters do believe in cuts to the vulnerable just dont have enough honesty to admit to themselves or others) You have no idea of that brown envelope fear, I have an invisible disability so 1 look at me and yup I must be a 'scrounger' and I've been called it often enough, I know that if they do find me fit for work all I'm going to be is another name on calumslist.org/, but as long as youre ok I guess who gives a fuck right?

CopperRose · 23/04/2017 11:18

Also, rather ironically, the Tories are (sensibly) at the moment refusing to rule out tax rises & the retention of the pension triple lock.
Not in keeping with 'LOWER TAXES FOR THE RICH AT THE EXPENSE OF THE POOR!!' at all.

The NI change was a pretty progressive suggestion imo and was not the horrific suggestion it was spun as, and the triple lock has served its intended purpose & now can be changed to a double lock without 'plunging pensioners into poverty'.

TheMonkeyandthePlywoodViolin · 23/04/2017 11:21

That's why they're refusing to rule it out, because with looks better for them with voters. They won't do it though

CopperRose · 23/04/2017 11:23

Callumslist is mostly a collection of people who committed suicide - some didn't access help that they could have.

It is not as simple as 'people are dying solely due to cuts & Tory policy' - they were mentally unwell which blurs the lines somewhat.

I say this as someone with an incurable, chronic physical illness, as well as bipolar, in receipt of support group ESA, and a single parent of 2.

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 23/04/2017 11:27

I know workshy families. One is a branch of my own family. They treat benefits like wages. The grandparents, aunties, uncles and parents advise each other to weigh up how much they get in benefits vs how much they'd get in their pockets from working. If there isn't much difference they choose not to work. They see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

They also moan about the lack of money in the NHS, and to support elderly and disabled people (some in our own extended family) yet still choose to take money from the tax pot themsleves rather than work and pay in to the tax pot because "it wouldn't make any sense."

They don't see themselves as tax dodgers. I do. They could work, earn, pay tax, thus be giving something to those in need like lottie's daughter and have similar money in their pockets. But no, that wouldn't make sense, apparently.

It makes me angry. It make me angry when it is suggested that I hate poor people and nurses and probably want to leave disabled people to die in a ditch for saying that workshy people like my relatives should be stopped from getting benefits. There is no magic money tree, especially post-Brexit. We should maximise the tax take but we also have to cut some things.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/04/2017 11:40

I know workshy families. One is a branch of my own family. They treat benefits like wages. The grandparents, aunties, uncles and parents advise each other to weigh up how much they get in benefits vs how much they'd get in their pockets from working. If there isn't much difference they choose not to work. They see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Anecdote is not evidence, if they are committing fraud (currently at 0.7% of the benefits bills) then they need to be reported. Current tax avoidence in the uk stands at £34 billion, fucking BILLION but less not address that huh, this tory government have closed so many tax offices but employed plenty of benefit fraud investigators, framing the narrative that those on benefits are more likely to be fraudulent. We know were the priorities lay huh? CUNTS!!!!!

CopperRose · 23/04/2017 11:49

*Anecdote is not evidence.
*
Unless it comes from an anti-Tory perspective.

Believeitornot · 23/04/2017 11:50

I know workshy families. One is a branch of my own family. They treat benefits like wages. The grandparents, aunties, uncles and parents advise each other to weigh up how much they get in benefits vs how much they'd get in their pockets from working. If there isn't much difference they choose not to work. They see absolutely nothing wrong with it

I know people who earn loads but try and wangle freebies wherever possible.

I know rich people who do everything within their power to avoid as much tax as possible.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/04/2017 11:51

CopperRose I cant tell if youre being deliberately obtuse or not

CopperRose · 23/04/2017 11:54

I am, sorry Flowers

darceybussell · 23/04/2017 11:58

They are trying to tackle tax avoidance. Every budget there is more and more legislation. It's not just as simple as 'stop tax avoidance' - they have to tackle each thing individually. Since 2010 there has been mountains of tax avoidance legislation.

The media don't report it though because it's bloody boring. No one cares that LLPs with both individual and corporate members will now have their profits shifted to the individual for tax purposes, or that fixed share partners in law firms will now be treated as employees. So we don't hear about it - but that does not mean that they are not doing it.

Believeitornot · 23/04/2017 12:07

Sensible austerity measures are fine. What's not fine is shitting on the most vulnerable people in society like those with a disability. So far this government has appeared to be at war with disabled people

I agree with this. But I don't agree that Labour wasted loads of money. I think that it costs money to do things like build hospitals and schools.

I would prefer for Labour to define exactly what they mean for the role of the state. A big picture. Then have a look at what we have now and the gap between.

Instead we have, from both parties, just a cherry picked list of "nice to haves". There is just no vision.

I want vision based on concrete evidence, not policy first followed by "evidence" later.

The one thing I really respected about the last labour government was that they at least tried to base some of their policies on evidence. I even read some of the research underpinning the early years interventions.

Shame they fucked it up in other areas.

I've never seen the Tories manage this. Look at the grammar schools fiasco. Look at the nhs. Where is the concrete evidence for the claims they make?

CopperRose · 23/04/2017 12:10

*I would prefer for Labour to define exactly what they mean for the role of the state. A big picture. Then have a look at what we have now and the gap between.

Instead we have, from both parties, just a cherry picked list of "nice to haves". There is just no vision.

I want vision based on concrete evidence, not policy first followed by "evidence" later.*

YY.
From all parties.