AIBU to not understand why "normal" people vote Tory?

[olddogsnewtricks]

OK, so I'll probably get flamed for this but am genuinely interested! All the people I know who vote Tory are pretty well off so use private schools and healthcare. As a family we need the NHS and we need a good education system - and I can't see them getting any better under the Tories. Are these just not priorities for Tory voters or do they really believe they will improve even with a Conservative government?

Indeed, super beagle. There is no monopoly on care for others in the Labour party only. It is a division between Tories who think it is best to ensure we can contiue to support the poor by sound economic policies and spend all today policies of labour.

If I said youc an have a small fortune today but the gravy train stops tomorrow which would you pick - the jam today or jam tomorrow? The Tories give you the continuing jam or at least bread and butter in a secure economy over the next 10 years. Labour might give you a bit more today but at huge risk of nothing later.

Sure, just say to someone who CANT work 'jam tomorrow' they'll be dead by then.

Single parent average income here

I vote Tory as I believe in their economic viewpoint. I don't believe funding public sector in a bid to be economically viable is. There is a limit to a closed pool of money.

I believe welfare has hurt and removed pride from those in the trap of being better off / generationally not working.

I believe overly left wing political correctness and immigration policies have caused the rise of the far right and damage to those previously integrated communities.

I believe Labour does harm.

Most of my friends who are high rate tax payers vote Labour because they believe in helping and supporting people who are unable to achieve what they themselves have.

spend all today policies of labour.

Why beg the question like this? No one is suggesting "spending everything today".

Silverdale - can you provide actual evidence that generations of people within the same family choose not to work? Because the government themselves had to admit they don't have any.

The reason a lot of people rely on tax credits is because even if they were working as many hours as they could it would not cover rent, bills and food costs. Particularly since energy and food costs have risen so much in the past 20 years.

Had a brief discussion with my step father about this last night.

Bit of background, for context.
He is in his 80's and has the benefit of a fairly good public sector pension (as does my mother). They live in a small bungalow that is now mortgage-free and adequate for their needs, if not exactly luxurious. They both have many chronic health conditions but at the moment are living independently. They live quite modestly but he admits they are quite comfortably off. They have just spent the best part of a grand on a new TV. Their last new car was bought for cash 3 years ago.

He didn't realise I do not yet have my state pension (I'm 63) and, without going into actual figures, was surprised how little my private pension is going to be compared to what he gets. (It's not going to be enough to live on, never mind have the sort of lifestyle he has).

He never had any particularly high level or well-paid jobs, and was working as a bus conductor when he met my mum.

I don't want this to turn into a pensioner-bashing thread, I really don't begrudge them anything.

However, he is completely oblivious to the plight of anyone not of his own generation, and especially how tough it is for people living in areas where housing costs are higher. He doesn't see any reason NOT to vote Tory. He remembers what things were like in the 60's under Labour, and also how well he did when the Tories were in power in the 80's. What he has forgotten is that the 1997 Labour govt had to pick up the pieces & attempt to remedy the selfishness and unfairness that started under Thatcherism.

So he votes Tory probably out of pure selfishness, but then how many people vote altruistically?

My only consolation is that he lives in a safe seat & his vote is extremely unlikely to make any difference.

lottieandmia
I understand my post was long so you must have missed where I wrote that I am happy for taxes to be spent on the disabled and healthcare and schools. I specifically said my problem was with those that can work but choose not to.
I repeat, I support help for the disabled. And you should hope the money won't be squandered on those that don't need to be supported to leave money for those that do - such as your daughter.

Under Labour, there'll be nothing left to support the disabled - be careful what you wish for.

Oh and I support more grammar schools too.

I do want to help those in unfortunate circumstances. But I do object to an attitude in some people that relies on state help - and expects it even though they might have thought about helping themselves.
Careful management of money is valuable though, as it does help provide support for people over the longer term.

I know people who I'd say were work shy.
But complain bitterly about not having the lifestyle they crave.

'Under Labour, there'll be nothing left to support the disabled - be careful what you wish for.'

This is typical Tory rhetoric - no money for your disabled family member? Well that's the fault of those lazy scroungers over there who haven't worked for generations. As Capri said it's an example of the divisive way that the Tories shift blame. I certainly don't buy it.

Did any of you read the threads that were going on around the time of the proposed tax credit cuts? It was illuminating to see from peoples personal experiences that the cuts were made in such a way to actively punish the poor.

I am happy for taxes to be spent on the disabled and healthcare and schools.

But these are the areas they have chosen to cut.

I agree about the Tory genius for turning disadvantaged groups on each other while the super rich sit back and dodge their taxes and laugh. My DH works in Chelsea and he has met many Trustafarians who have never worked- Daddy bought them a nice little penthouse and they just spend their days swanning round shopping. Many rich people inherited a huge amount- Cameron and Trump for example. Of course some wealthy people have worked extremely hard but wealth does not necessarily correlate with how hard you have worked.
There was an excellent link on one of these threads looking at a number of psychological studies which conclude that most people don't have a problem with inequality,they have an issue with unfairness.
It is not good for any society to have so much wealth concentrated increasingly in the hands of a very small number of people.
I don't believe that anyone has worked hard enough to justify sitting on hundreds of billions of pounds or dollars.

I had a period of ill health once and couldn't work.

Some people said I was work shy. I am completely not work shy and work very hard and enjoy it. People are far too quick to throw that term around and judge others.

Quite - would anyone actually be rude enough to say to a NHS nurse that the reason they aren't rich is because they didn't work hard enough?

No LouKout, I voted Tory last time - I mean I will abstain.

Your assumption that you know my mind and intentions identifies you as a true leftist, however

I'd love for this country to have a welfare safety net that enables people who cannot work to have decent life. I'd love this country to have an economy that means working will give you a decent life.

I don't believe that Labour's policies will deliver any of that.

Lottie you can shout all you like about how the current government has not achieved it either and I will agree with you. However, I think Labour will do a worse job of it.

JAP's 20 point list earlier swung me closer to voting Tory. Anon's summary of why it is nonsense is spot on. The list smacked of "we will build a wall to keep the bad hombres out and Mexico will pay for it." Every single assumption in it seems ludicrous to me.

And where I am, sitting it out doesn't mean Tory.

My DH works in Chelsea and he has met many Trustafarians who have never worked- Daddy bought them a nice little penthouse and they just spend their days swanning round shopping.

Not sure why this is acceptable to say but when people say that they've witnessed examples of intergenerational welfare dependency, they're shouted down as not being able to provide evidence etc. "It's only the minority - why should everyone be punished for the deeds of a few?" You could make the same argument for what you've just said.

User..my point is that abstaining is equivalent to voting Tory in this election.

Your inability to understand my post marks you out as a right winger though

No LouKout, I voted Tory last time - I mean I will abstain.

Abstention is the same as a vote for the incumbent government, ergo you'll be voting tory again

Labour should look at posts like Silverdale's to see what they are up against (and I support all Silverdale's responses and support May).

MsH, you'd need wealth taxes then to counter housing equity and pension fund high values held by high capital owners and also their gold and savings. Interestingly labour's original plan to tax those who own houses or flats in the South East based on the capital value even if the mortgage means they have no equity and they also have no savings, has not been mentioned so far. Let us see what they do about capital confiscation of wealth or annual wealth taxes like France has.

Crosspost LouKout

..ah I found a recent telegraph quote perhaps on my point

"John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor,would grab 20 per cent of the assets of the richest 10 per cent of Britons if Labour got into power, it emerged today. In video footage uncovered by the Telegraph, Jeremy Corbyn’s closest ally claimed the move would "wipe out" the deficit and make "those who created the crisis pay for the crisis". Tory MPs said his comments revealed that senior Corbyn allies were plotting the most "radical Left-wing" government "ever experienced in the UK". Speaking to Labour members in the North West in March 2012, Mr McDonnell praised the wealth tax theory of the Left-wing economist Professor Greg Philo, where "you put 20 per cent tax on the wealthiest 10 per cent of the UK".

Mr McDonnell, however, appeared confused by the figures involved, saying that “four fifths” of the national debt would be wiped out as a result of the "£800 million" that the windfall would raise, even though the national debt stands at £1.7 trillion."

Labour always seems to get the sums wrong

"He said: "If you took Greg Philo's idea of a wealth tax, where you put 20 per cent tax on the highest- the wealthiest 10 per cent of this country - the wealthiest 10 per cent own £4,000 billion.

"If you took 20 per cent of that you would then have £800 million and we could tackle our deficit - we could tackle our debt - four fifths of our debt would then be wiped out.

"So we're saying just collect the money and make those who created the crisis pay for the crisis and that way you overcome it."

However, according to the Office of National Statistics, the aggregate wealth of all households in Great Britain was £11.1 trillion between 2012-2014. And the wealthiest 10 per cent of households owned 45 per cent of this figure- an estimated £4.995 trillion.

On economic policy, he said Labour would instruct the HMRC to introduce a financial transaction tax, a land tax, and "the wealth tax"."
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By the way wealth and capital taxes are very popular in the UK (as most people have just about no savings and many have no equity in their house).